Ximmich

Yes.😆😂👌

Yes. In the first novel and CD, Kiyoi is as similar as in the drama, is only more expressive and usually shows his real personality when he is with Hira, but since they aren`t that close yet, and for most of the time he don`t knows if he should trust Hira completely, he is still refraining for showing all his emotions around him. This is also obvious in the drama for me, he is much more honest and expressive when he is around Hira, but at the same time, because Hira becomes someone he cares about, if he feels rejected/misunderstood, he becomes really cold and harsh with Hira.
Kiyoi is a really complex character, even more complex than Hira and i think this is really easy to spot in the drama. If i compare Kiyoi and Hira with how the characters are categorised in danmei novels, in my opinion Kiyoi is the MC ( main character) and Hira is the ML ( love interest), because Kiyoi is writed to be more complex than Hira most of the time , but in a way they have equal presence in the novel.

This is why in the second novel/CD, when they are together/dating, Kiyoi gets really honest with Hira and his contrast on how he is with Hira and how he bahaves around other people is huge, i am always amazed. He still tries to be cool in the presence of Hira when he is able to from his perspective, but Hira always sees him as this perfect, extremely beautiful, cool and confident person, so not matter what Kiyoi does he is always cool in Hira eyes. I found all those aspects of their relationship to be really fascinating. They somehow complement each other very well, because while Hira does everything Kiyoi wants to make him happy even when he is not asked, in his dense/clueless and negative way, Hira becomes more communicative, which is enough for Kiyoi to know when he shouldn`t let him do everything for him, and when to suggest things that will make Hira express his wants regarding their relationship too. They have this balance in their relationship that is hard to put in words.
It`s not wonder the novels are so popular in Japan, NAGIRA YUU has surpassed herself with this novel series.

I have to share this, since is too funny. We were just talking about how Kiyoi has really tried to give a lot of signals to Hira that he is also interested in him, but the signals didn`t made it to Hira, because of how dense and clueless he is.
I just come across this FMV that has most of the scenes where Kiyoi try to hint to Hira that he also likes him, and the scenes chosen match the song Signal from TWICE, and this combination is so funny, i laughed aloud.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyZgziQLvPo

Yes. This is what i was partially refering too.
I don`t know if i should be envious or not of you , for binging all the eps when the last ep was out.
Both binging at the end or watching the eps while the drama it`s airing has it advantages and disavantages, but in this drama case, i think watching while it airing had more advantages, because discussing things with other people here was really fun.
This drama is based on a novel, has two audio dramas, which helped keep the discussions going, because people was able to have discussions from different angles: being drama, novel or audio dramas.

Yes. It certainly does change the understanding of this scene a bit. It is my pleasure to share info from the novel.
There is an audio drama if you like to listen to audio dramas, which shows lot of things that didn`t made it into the drama, which has started being translated in english ( with the subs added in the tracks/videos) in youtube recently, and with really good voice actors which has voices and a style of talking really similar with the characters from the drama. The links can be found in the discussion section, if you ever want to check it.

Yes, i also try to cut people a lot of slack, but is not easy to remain indifferent when people express negative opinions about the drama in a way where it sounds like the opinion is absolute, and everyone should agree with it. And is extremely hard when i see someone judge other people who liked this drama, like they don`t want to allow other people to like it.

You were pretty close in the way you interpreted the things you wrote in the previous comment.

RE: Why Kiyoi didn't want Hira to touch him.
Your opinion it`s really similar with the way i also interpret it, with the only difference being that based on the content that was in the novel but didn`t made it in the drama, and based on the fact that Kiyoi has asked Hira if he wants to date him before and he was rejected, i have come to the conclusion that while Kiyoi asked this question because he wants Hira to not treat him as a KING/GOD anymore , but as a ordinary man, he also wanted for him to accept being his boyfriend and to touch him as a boyfriend, otherwise he won`t allow anything else. The worship/idolization Hira has for Kiyoi is not something that is easy to change, it will continue to be part of their relationship all the time in the future based on the other novels, it will at most get better because Hira is more aware of it. I think Kiyoi is also aware of this, of the fact that this can`t be changed easily, so this is also why i think the intention of the question was more of wanting for Hira to agree being his lover/for him to get Hira to realise he wants for him to treat him as a lover/boyfriend. As a lover, not a object of idolization, which is also similar with what you wrote.

In the novel, in this particular scene, Kiyoi has said to Hira that if everything is still the same as before , then he don`t wants for Hira to touch him. Then Hira answer was that, if Kiyoi is okay with it , he wants to touch him as a lover/boyfriend. It was not revealed in the drama directly, even through it was implied, but Kiyoi has decided that he wants to have sex for the first time with someone he is in love with and someone who loves him back and is serious with him, so he waited all this time for Hira, even through there were a lot of people who has showed interest in him, so based on this he wouldn`t allow Hira to touch him if they aren`t on the same page when it comes to the status of their relationship.
But this is the conclusion of someone who has knowledge about the novel, everyone interpretation of this scene is right as long as it`s realistic enough.

Okay, i will stop here, i am tired. But if you want to discuss everything else related to the drama or anything else in general, you can continue to write me.

Your comment is so spot on that is really funny to read, hahahha.
If people are even a bit open minded about the things that happens in the drama, and are perceptive, there should be able to interpret everything similarly to the way you did it, and is unfortunately when is see people miss the point so much when it comes to what happens in the drama. So i am really happy that i was able to encounter so many people in this drama page who share similar opinions with mine, since discussing things like this has made me enjoy the drama even more. At least this drama has done really well in Japan and China, maybe we will get a second season.

Nod, nod to everything you said, it`s like you have read the novel, you have noticed everything.
I was laughing so hard when i read the part when you writed that Kiyoi actions seem very obvious to him lol, because it`s true. Kiyoi has always thought that he has given to Hira some very obvious clues, which Hira should get, and this is also why he reacted the way he did, Hira was sending him really mixed signals too lol.

I was really impressed that Kiyoi has cut ties with Hira too, because is a sign that he wants to be loved for who he is and he wants a genuinely relationship, and he wouldn`t settle for less. This decision Kiyoi has made here adds depth to Hira and Kiyoi relationship, because it shows that Kiyoi is serious about Hira, and he has been for a long time.
The scene where he also makes Hira choose between accepting being his boyfriend for him to touch him and do anything more or he won`t allow anything else ( the scene where Kiyoi says if nothing has changed, then no), also show how serious Kiyoi is about them. It`s obvious it wasn`t easy for him to ask that question, but he did it because he wanted to make things clear between them. Our boy wouldn`t settle for less and wouldn`t give himself to anyone who isn`t serious with him, and i love Kiyoi for this, Hira is the lucky one, lol.

If you have watched the drama with the subs from GagaOOLala , which are pretty bad, VIKI has much better subs and there is also a fansubber named Lollilopsubs which translated the majority of the eps. I have made a discussion thread about this, which you can check if you don`t know about it.

I had exactly the same interpretation. I just didn`t want to reply because i was to lazy to write, so thank you for doing this in my behalf too, hahahaha.
From the moment Kiyoi has come after Hira and has started talking with him, his body language screamed frustration from all his pores for me, lol.
Especially when he says the word IT`S HOT for the second time, he looked really annoyed to me, and it was not because Hira guessed right. I am sure his reaction reveals that he is annoyed because Hira missed the point, the point being obviously him not getting the clue that he has come to be with him because he wanted to be with him, and not because he wanted to get away from "his friends".
And Hira missed the point so many times, that is not wonder that Kiyoi has gotten all emotional and was forced to be really clear with Hira in the scene in the classroom from the last episode.
Hira is even more frustrating in the novel lol, they get even more intimate than in the drama before Kiyoi confesses in the coffee theatre, and is even more clear with his questions, and he still didn`t get the clue that Kiyoi likes him.
This is why i was contented with all that happened in the drama, because not matter what Kiyoi would have done, until he would have confessed directly, Hira wouldn`t have got it, hints don`t work with him, not when it comes to Kiyoi.

A novel is the source material, but it has a manga adaptation released very recently, which will take some time to be released fully and translated.
You cand find more details here.
https://kisskh.at/discussions/utsukushii-kare/67669-utsukushii-kare-english-novel

Check this.
https://kisskh.at/discussions/utsukushii-kare/67669-utsukushii-kare-english-novel
The english translation of the novel is the beginning stage of the translation.
Most of us know of what happens in the novel, because people who know japanese, read the novel and were willing to share what happens. There are also a lot of spoilers about what happens in the novel in twitter, which i also posted some links in the thread for the novel.
There are also two audio dramas/CDs available that has different kind of translations, which varies from spanish to english in different phase of translation, translations that will still continue to be updated, which some people have listened too.
You can find all the details about everything in the link above.

Yes. Definitely check the first audio drama for things that weren`t show in the drama until the novels are translated , as it has all the kisses and some really explicit 18+ rated stuff, that weren`t shown in the drama.
You can find the links to listen to it here.
https://kisskh.at/discussions/utsukushii-kare/67669-utsukushii-kare-english-novel

Huuuahhahhaha, your comment was so funny to read. Especially the part where you described Ichiro personality and the contrast between Ichiro and Shiro.
I also love when the dynamic between the characters turns out to be really different than the impression the characters makes initially, is so fascinating.
First Hira and Kiyoi in Utsukushii kare, then this drama, hope we will see more of those kinds of characters in japanese BLs.

I was able to intuite what were you trying to say, i think i read a lot of comments from you and other people i discussed with more often, to know it was not your intention to blame the director.
The ideea is that people should take in consideration how Shiro and Ichiro relationship develops in the source material before saying things like the drama will be turned into bromance, or before generalizing or putting blame on others.

The source material is vague, with the latest volume released only having hints that the two MIGHT have feelings for each other, with them not acknowledging that they have feelings for each other, and things like this matter.
Another big thing that matters in this drama, is the crime/mystery genre. Even if is a BL, all japanese crime/mystery dramas released until now don`t have romance at all or if they have some romance, this is not the focus, it don`t influence the crime cases. I don`t think i watched until now a crime/mystery drama that has a kiss scene between the main characters and i watched the majority of crime/investigation dramas Japan has made. I am not kidding here, there is really this tendency to not show romance in this genre. Just because this drama is a BL adaptation, it don`t means that the tradition that JAPAN has in having their crime/mystery dramas to be focused in the crime aspect will change.

I was so disappointed in The Night Beyond the Tricornered Window, both the movie and the anime, but i know they didn`t have a choice but to adapt the story that way because the manga is like this. I still liked both the anime and the drama, they were entertaining, i was just disappointed about the lack of romance. In the end, i decided to still give the movie a really good rating in MDL because overall it was well acted, it was just a bit messy executed, and it didn`t left a memorable impression on me. The manga only shows hints that the characters might get together, but there is not acknowledgment. Because it was the mangaka decision, i feel is not right to blame the mangaka either, she probably wanted the story to be appreciated as it is without relying on the characters getting together in a obvious way.

And i will be here until the end of the drama to remind people those things, you will not be alone in this.

We still don`t know how it will turn up in the end, but we have to consider this is an adaptation of an ongoing manga in which the focus is the crime/mystery part, and not the romance. In the latest volume of the manga, Shiro and Ichiro still hasn`t made that much progress compared to the previous chapters, there are not dating or anything like this.
Even if they adapted the manga faithfully, we will still not get many genuinely romantic moments, because they are not in the manga in the first place.
Like Kino san has mentioned, they may show the fake dating part more later, who knows, honestly i am more into this drama for the characters and the crime/mystery part.

Don`t associate one single japanese BL adaptation with the China way of adapting their danmei novels, because until now all Japanese BL adaptations made, movie or dramas were very faithful to the source material, and they never turned a romance between two male characters in bromance or added a female love interest.
Even if this drama will be an exception, the source material is ongoing and is the way it is, they can`t be blamed if they don`t show more than is in the source material.

Yep. Rurouni Kenshin is a really big exception.

No. It doesn`t.

You are aso chill about it, i love it.
Yes, at the beginning when i was exploring on what kind of chinese BL/danmei novels i prefer, i also did the same, i just took a big sigh and move on. The drama Addicted is much better than the novel, i was a bit shocked when i read the novel honestly, because from the drama it did not looked that the characters has so many issues.
While in Utsukushii kare, the drama gives to some people the impression that the relationship will not get better in the future or that is problematic as hell and those two are not good for each other, but from reading the second and third novel you realise that those guys really try to give their relationship a serious shot and are becoming better persons by being together.
Really hope they will make a second season for this drama, since i read the director was considering to do another one from the start, but this will also depend on how well the DVD/Bluray version and merchandise and other stuff released will do.
I swear this is the last comment i make to you when it come to this, since i don`t even know why i feel the need to discuss so much about this.

I also read Addicted and i want to say that Addicted is really different from Utsukushii kare novels. I wrote this for you to get an ideea how Hira and Kiyoi relationship is compared to that of the main couple in Addicted.
When they get together, Hira and Kiyoi are really lovely as a couple, they are really considerate in general, there are only misunderstandings that cause some problems.
The relationship between Hira and Kiyoi don't have consent issues, which is opposite with Addicted which it even had a rape scene, and where the novel has some really problematic scenes. Hu Gai has a really problematic behaviour a lot of times and his issues surpass all the issues that Hira and Kiyoi has together. I really hated some of the things he did to Bailuo.
Utsukushii kare novels never goes as dark as Addicted, like Hira and Kiyoi together has left me in awe, while reading Gu Hai and Bai Luo story i was left with a bitter taste.
I only mentioned Addicted to express my opinion, hope you aren`t upset about what i wrote if Addicted is one of your favorite novel, after all what we like reading is also a matter of preference/taste more than anything else, i didn`t mean anything else.

Now, i want to share something about the novels, which i hope it will make you want to read the novels even more.
The drama is an adaptation of the first novel with the same name, and there are a total of three main novels that covers Hira and Kiyoi story.
There are aslo two audio dramas released, but the translation of them are in progress.

The first novel only shows how Hira and Kiyoi get together. The other two novels shows the most important part of their relationship: how they mature, learn from the mistakes they make while they are dating which will only make their bond stronger, and also how they influence each other to become a better version of themselves.
Kiyoi manage to overcome his low self-esteem little by little in time, baby steps but they are made, and this happens especially because Kiyoi gives him suggestions on what to do and is encouraging every time Hira fails to do things. Being together with Kiyoi, makes Hira realises that he has to get out of his comfort zone and try to become a man worthy to stay by Kiyoi side, so him being with Kiyoi brings changes in his life.

Kiyoi is unable to express well emotions like fear, weakness and basically let his guard down enough for him to move the audience in his job as an actor, because he don`t likes to show weaknesses in front other people. He also don`t like to show weakness in front of Hira, but he gets much more comfortable in showing his emotions in front of Hira in time. There are some events related with Hira which breaks this wall Kiyoi has in being unable to show weakness, which makes him improve in acting and be able to achieve his full potential.

This is all, i won`t say more. Hope i was able to be really vague on my descriptions, and i had avoided giving specific spoilers.

Yes, they are both young, they are lonely and each has their own personal issues.
They are teenagers when they meet in high school, i know that pople have different experiences in high school, but that period is one of the most confusing one, people make a lot of mistakes in that period and don`t realise the consequences of their actions until years later.
People in real life in this period are really self-centered, they do things impulsively and they don`t think there is a need to apologize and made up for their mistakes, because they don`t realise how the words said affects others. I speak from personal experience because even through i was a really quiet and introvert person when i was in school, i still had a lot of moments where when i look back, i regret some words that they have come out of my mouth.
Both Hira and Kiyoi are not teenagers that had a normal childhood, this is important too, and is the reason why their actions shouldn`t be interpreted as of people who have grow up i am more normal way.
Hira has grow up watching others looking down on him, making fun of him, it was hinted that he hates going to school at lot of times, which means the scene in the first episode with his classmates laughing and making fun at him, is something he is used with. It`s also likely that he suffered from a certain degree of bullying in the past too. It`s obvious this has made him has low self-esteem, which is not like he wanted to be like this, and is not like he don`t wants for things to get better, but this already happened too many times, so he closed in his own world. He don`t want to initiate actions that can make things better, because he has realised is useless, and is more safe this way, it prevents him to get hurt even more.
Kiyoi has felt neglected from when he has a child, he don`t trust others easily, he also keeps his distance from everyone, but from a different reason than Hira. At the same time he only wants to be loved unconditionally.

They both make mistakes, but they pay for the mistakes, this is showed clearly in the drama, this is one of the best parts of the drama and novels in my opinion, there are consequences for their actions, which are easy to spot. They get separated, both of their insecurities prevents them from understanding each other, and to get together for a long time. Kiyoi wished to be loved by someone in the way the fans love their idols in TV, and is exactly what he got, but it has bitten him in the ass later. Hira, yes Hira was so wrong for loving Kiyoi the way he has done, but at least he has realised his mistakes, and he has enough common sense to realise he has to overcome his low esteem at least a bit, because he has what it takes to get with the guy he always wanted.

I don`t think you are messed up and need therapy lol.
People don`t always use the most accurate words to express what they are feeling, so sometimes they use much more heavy and strong words, but as long as we understand what they wanted to convey, is okay.
I think that people who has writed that Hira and Kiyoi has a dysfunctional relationship, they refer especially for the period the characters were in high school, because of the power imbalance the characters has, and they most likely couldn`t think of another accurate word. And about the manipulation part, while i feel there was not any manipulation going between them which was done in a direct way, Kiyoi has a lot of influence over Hira, because Hira has allowed it, and i think people has sensed this and this is what they are refering to.
In all novels, Kiyoi has great influence over Hira, and i really appreciate that Kiyoi has never took advantage on this, not for his own personal gain at least. He at most only tries to suggest Hira to do things which might make him get out of his comfort zone.

I really loved reading the part you said that "Falling in love and expressing love does not come with a guiding book or rules. Everyone does what think is best and then work or learn from their mistakes... sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. That's life." - because is so touching. This has made my day better.