TexanTitan

I usually argue in favor of kissing, because usually, in my opinion, when BL dramas have couples but they never kiss, or worse, act grossed out or whatever about the thought of kissing, it reads to me as the directors being afraid of making the show too gay. But honestly, I thought it made sense for them just to hug in this show. Just because you have an emotional connection with someone that you built online, it still takes time to get physically comfortable with someone. Although, in the upcoming movie, if they show the characters after they have been dating for a while and they don't at least like kiss each other on the cheek or something, I would probably call bs.

I bought a ticket to watch the finale/fancon which was at 2pm Manila time, 8/16/2020. The finale will be released on youtube on this upcoming Wednesday, I believe.

I was satisfied with the final episode, but I didn't love it.

Whew, there is a lot going on in this one! The production company clearly has some money, based on the number and quality of the sets. Also, I like the pace, things are moving quickly, things are happening. Unfortunately, I don't really like either of the main characters. Honestly, they both remind me of asshole straight guys I went to high school/college with. Acting issues aside, both of their characters personalities are kind of off-putting to me. I skimmed through most of the first episode. Hopefully the characters become more sympathetic.

God, I hope so! Gay dramas are too depressing and BLs have too much unnecessary relationship drama (like the "evil girlfriend" trope). If gay dramas could be a little happier and BLs a little less contrived, both genres would be better overall, imo.

They are charging 99 pesos to see the finale early, so I'm sure they moved it later so they could make a little money. In other words, there will be a gap from today (until the 16th, when you can pay to see the final ep) and then they will put it on youtube for everyone on the 19th.

Ha ha, somebody should make a supercut of all the times Gav said "baby"

I'm not the one making the shows, Thai people are making the shows, so it's not MY colonizing vision, it's the vision of Thai people. As you yourself said, apparently Thai shows are not marketed to Westerners, so that means my vision has nothing to do with it. I'm just choosing a side, and I'm choosing the side that shows realistic portrayals of gay couples. If you don't like it, you should get mad at the Thai production companies and actors who made the shows with the "taboo" sex you don't like. For me to be colonizing, I would have to have some power to change the values of thai society and I don't, although if I did have that power I would use it to support the Thai people who want more acceptance of queer couples. Anyway, clearly we are not going to agree and I have already spent like an hour writing all these comments, so this is it for me. You've got your opinion and I have mine.

Ok, well, I think we've said all there is to say on this topic. I am going to continue to support BLs with realistic portrayals of queer relationships and criticize those that don't have them. I think there are plenty of people in Thailand that feel the same, as shown by the fact that more BLs are being made and more of them have physical intimacy. I agree that straight shows make more money, but that's true all over the world. More people are straight, after all. Clearly, there are production companies that think it is worth it. And there are fans that support the shows as well. You believe that these shows are made for teenage girls with gay fetishes. I see people from all over the world who come together and learn about each other and enjoy conversation and friendship. I think the more realistic portrayals help everyone by showing people what real gay relationships look like. You think that is a "western value" and that people in Thailand don't care about it and think gay relationships are "only about sex". I don't argue with sex-negative conservatives in the US where I am from and since it seems like that is what you are, I'm not going to keep discussing with you either.

If the argument is that straight series and BLs with straight actors and no intimacy make more money, I'm sure you are right. So then answer my question, why do production companies make BLs with sex scenes? They must have some reason for doing it. I know why I think they do it, but I'm curious to hear your answer. You have been ignoring that part of my comments for a couple of comments now.

Are they all just perverts and pornographers? Fetishists, as you said before?

I'm not really sure what your comment is referring to. Even if the "general public" is "targeting" BLs as "sex only", production companies are still making them, so they must be getting something out of it.

If no one was making any money (or getting artistic satisfaction), then why do production companies keep making them??? And not only are production companies continuing to make them, they are spreading to other asian countries! We have BLs in the Philippines, in Taiwan, Japan, etc...

You seem to be arguing that sex scenes are *hurting* the BL industry, but more BLs have intimacy now than before and more BLs are being made, so it seems like you are just wrong. I don't know what you are talking about. Do you have some evidence that physical intimacy in BLs is hurting the industry? Do you have some evidence that BLs are not marketing to audiences all over the world (not just in Asia)? You seem to be making a lot of claims based on your feelings, but I don't agree with you.

I can't say that physical intimacy is making BLs more popular (I don't have the numbers to say that), but I also can't see that physical intimacy is making BLs less popular. They seem to be doing well and growing.

So what's your point and what's your evidence?

Honestly, I am not really concerned with what straight Asian dramas do. It sounds like you are implying that queer people should want to be just like straight people. I don't.

So first of all, these shows are courting international audiences. That's why they subtitle and promote in other places. If they are going to market to international audiences, they are going to get feedback from international sources. Some of that feedback may be based in conservative norms and some will be based in progressive norms. The producers have to decide what they care about: making a show that is more acceptable to conservative viewers or making a show that is more acceptable to progressive viewers (or in some cases, maybe the producers don't care at all; maybe they are trying to stay true to a story that has already been written). If the producers choose to create a show that has very little physical intimacy in order to appeal more to conservative audiences, that is certainly their right. And it is my right to be critical of that decision.

Second, one of the big assumptions here is that shows need to be commercially successful (meaning, make a lot money). A lot of creative types make what they consider art; they do it because they have a vision of what they want to create, to inspire feelings in viewers and tell a compelling story. Of course, artistic vision and a desire for commercial success are not necessarily mutually exclusive; a production team can want to have both. But I think, as a queer person, media has a responsibility to show positive, real representation of our community, especially when many of the writers and actors are straight. If they are going to profit off our community, they have a responsibility to represent us as we are.

Third, you seem to be saying that showing m/m sex scenes is giving Thai people some kind of negative impression of gay people? What is this impression, that gay people have sex? I think most people know this already. If what you mean is that it is giving straight people the impression that gay people are not going to abide by traditional, hetero-normative rules of modesty and propriety, I think that is not a bad thing, it is a good thing. Rules of modesty and propriety can be empowering for people, when chosen without coercion, but when they are forced on people by conservative people who use them as excuses to exclude and ostracize, that is a form of oppression.

Fourth, media frequently challenge society. I think the most important thing to point out (because I am from the US and not Thailand, so my opinion is not the most important here) is that many Thai production companies ARE choosing to show physical intimacy. Make It Right, Love by Chance, Together With Me, TharnType, Until We Meet Again, Why R U?, 2Moons2, all of these Thai BL dramas had physical intimacy/sex scenes. Thai fans and international fans liked these shows. They weren't as popular as 2gether, it's true, but they still have devoted fans and did well enough for multiple series to be produced (or to be in production). So, there seems to be plenty of Thai people how support these shows. And international fans as well.

Regardless, I can choose to support whatever shows I want and criticize the shows that I feel deserve it for queerbaiting, which I do feel 2gether did, especially towards the end with the infamous "high-five" scene.

As I mentioned in my first comment in this thread, my issue is when producers are afraid to show intimacy. If there is a legit reason for no intimacy, and it makes sense in the context of the show, the show is still compelling and real (like Gameboys with the quarantine). However, a lot of the time, we have straight producers, straight actors, marketing "gay" dramas to straight women with no physical intimacy (because that would be "taboo" as you said). That is exploitation of the LGBT community and it deserves to be criticized.

Tony Labrusca was like a semi-finalist on a reality singing show to make a boyband in the Philippines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyjCVLZJNio

I like your answer! I will point out, my original comment was that I understand why Gameboys doesn't have physical intimacy and it doesn't bother me because there is an actual reason for it in the context of the show. If other BLs have relationships without sex, I think that is fine, as long as it makes sense within the context of the show. I don't think a general policy of just ignoring the issue (within the show) is good enough for me, but as long as there is some kind of context or explanation for why they are not having sex, I am okay with it.

Thanks for the nuanced response. I agree that relationships don't have to be based on sex. However, I feel like a realistic portrayal of a relationship would include conversations about that. I would say BLs in general would benefit from more talking about sex (whether that means having it or not). Even in the shows where there is sex, it is frequently not discussed in any detail. It's usually that one of the characters is the horny one and the other is the tsundere and freaks out every time the horny one tries to kiss or touch but slowly "gives in" and they have sex, and as long as the top doesn't full on rape the bottom, it's seen as being cute. And in some of the older BLs, it was full on rape (I'm talking about Ohm and Toey in Make It Right). I think this is a huge problem in BL. They need intimacy consultants to help them show healthy relationships (unless there is a reason in terms of plot to show an unhealthy relationship, but that needs to be acknowledged and addressed).

What I hate is this sort of unspoken rule in many BLs that sex and intimacy should be secret and hidden and talking or showing intimacy is a taboo. I understand that there can be cultural reasons for this, but considering that many of the cultural norms that lead to public intimacy being shameful are the same norms that are anti-gay and anti-woman, if we are going to show gay couples in TV at all, I want a more overtly queer, pro-LGBT stance from the shows I watch.

As to your point that some dramas (both straight and gay) show only hugs, that may be true. But what is also true is that there are dramas that show more, and they are successful as well. Maybe not quite as successful, I don't know. 2gether was super popular and there was very little chemistry or intimacy between Sarawat and Tine. Would the show have been *less* popular if they had kissed or had sex? Maybe, I don't know. But I am only speaking to what I want to see in BLs and criticizing what I see as places where, in terms of storytellng, they could improve.

I'm glad that that you are finally able to see more LGBT representation in media. That has always been super important to me, growing up as a queer kid in the 80s. Any tiny little bit of LGBT representation was so powerful to me, although it was usually terrible (the best friend with no life, the villain, lovers who die of AIDS or commit suicide in the end, or are murdered).

That being said, I don't want our stories to be treated equally to straight people. I want all of our stories to be told better and I want our stories to appear alongside and intertwined with straight stories.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with watching portrayals of sex in media. It does sound like you maybe grew up with messages that seeing sex on TV is shameful, or disgusting, or sinful, etc... I don't believe that. I think a piece of media can be sweet, loving, with strong caring bonds and relationships AND have hot sweet sexy times, all in the same media with the same characters.

If the characters don't want to have sex, ok. That is a conversation. But I want to see an end to producers using our stories to make money, and straight actors using our stories to make money, and then purposefully making them as UN-sexy as possible to appease straight viewers and "cultural norms".

One: No one said it did. If seeing people express physical intimacy to you sounds like porn, you might have some issues around sex and intimacy to work out. Therapy helps.

Two: I hear people argue all the time on this platform that they value "realism" in their dramas. When something bad happens (like a main character dies in a car accident) I immediately see commenters say things like, "Oh, that makes me like this drama even more! Yes, it's sad, but that happens in real life! It's realistic!" You know what happens very, very rarely in life? 20-something college students having relationships with no sex. That is unusual and rare. If there were a couple of 20-something college students dating and living together without sex, they would probably have some kind of religious reason, maybe? But I feel like their religious reason would be super obvious and talked about.

Again, this is about the choices of the production team. If there is no reason within the show for a couple to not have physical intimacy, but none is shown, that is because the production team is anti-sex, anti-gay, or cowardly. They are just afraid people will see the intimacy, be like, "gross!" and then not watch the drama. And that is their right to do so. And it is my right to refuse to watch the show and drag it in the comments whenever I want.

Hope that cleared things up! <3

Watching Gameboys has helped me figure out an issue that I have had with BLs for years. I'm one of the BL fans that always wants to see the couples kiss, hold hands, sex scenes, etc... I get really irritated when a show purposefully leaves that part out. And one thing I realized watching Gameboys, which has not had any physical intimacy so far (for obvious reasons, they are in quarantine and can't meet in person), is that, the reason I hate it when there is not kissing, etc... is because usually it makes no sense! Take 2gether. Sarawat and Tine are two hot, 20-year olds in college. I remember college. You can't tell me they didn't have sex. There is no actual reason not so show their intimacy except fear on the part of the production company (or maybe the actors). Look at Tharntype. That is much more realistic in terms of intimacy. With Gameboys, it totally makes sense why they haven't hooked up. I'm glad this show helped me realize it's not that lack of physical intimacy that makes me dislike shows, it's when there is no physical intimacy for no reason and it is unrealistic and doesn't make sense in the context of the show.

Uh, that's awesome! Thanks for the knowledge! :-)

I'm in the US and we are stuck with Trump. Our government is embarrassing. I support any/all criticism of crappy governments. If people don't like the political posts, that is of course their right to feel that way. But as far as I know, mydramalist doesn't have any rules about political posts, so I think we have the right to post political things if we want.

Also, didn't the government of the Philippines refuse to allow a major network to keep broadcasting? And isn't that the network doing Hello, Stranger? So politics does affect the BL world, too.

When I first started watching this show, I thought it would be a silly romantic comedy that I would skim through each week and not think much about afterwards. Over the last few episodes, it has become unexpectedly deep. The themes of grief, parental acceptance, loyalty, and friendship have really been resonating with me. The last two episodes have been really helpful to me as I process my own grief for people who have passed from COVID-19 and as I confront the fears I have for what may happen in the future as this pandemic continues to affect the world. I mean, I have cried like 5 times over the last two episodes, but in a good way ;-).

Now I want Pearl and Cai's brother to get together, and some kind of physical meeting (if possible) for Cai and Gav, and this series will have a perfect ending. <3