Kimsamsoom

Yes! this is perfect :)))

I've heard many rave reviews, but I don't watch horror/suspense/psychological thrillers.

With the way my mind works, I wouldn't be able to sleep LOL!

I saw a 5 second GIF of the ML's face being superimposed on a scary picture of FOE, and it still haunts my mind :(((

I get the feeling what SDM says, and what she wants and thinks are two very different things.

She says ok, whatever the tarrot cards says, i'm going to do it. Then proceeds to ignore it anyway.

Tells HJP she doesn't want hopes and dreams, but facts. But ignores all that and partners up with NDS for smart city.

She is a walking contradiction that says all the right things, but does all the wrong things. And luckily for her, the wrong things still works out in the end.

She tells HJP she didn't think he crossed the line, but then literally 10 seconds later, she says he actually made her almost cry quite a few times.

I've just realized SDM is one flaky lady.

The thing about the show is that the cast of the show verbally voice out HJP flaws. As if they have to convince the audience HJP is a bad guy. Oh HJP only helps us because of SDM, he has an ulterior motive, without SDM he won't care about us. Oh, HJP is a jerk, oh it's because of HJP's harshness that my brother killed himself. You'll notice towards HJP, they always verbalized his apparent flaws. But towards NDS? Not even one flaw. In fact, the only one who points out NDS flaws is HJP, and of course he is vilified for doing so. In the eyes of the cast, NDS is an angel, and HJP is a devil. But a key note here is that in NDS case, even though nobody verbally points out his flaws, the audience sees it, and judges his actions anyway, and even though the writer and the characters are trying to vilify HJP, it's actually NDS actions that get vilified by the kdrama audience. It's the opposite effect of what PHR intended.

I'm very sure that PHR intended to make HJP a grey villain, but she failed miserably. She gave him too much of a head start in the white department, that when she wanted to splash on black on HJP's characterization it was too late, as most of his actions become justifiable because of all he has done and accomplished for SDM and SST.

In fact, I can argue that Halmoni was another "villain" in the show. The fact she started the lie, never told SDM the truth, and etc... And her blindness is her punishment basically. Just like TKEM, the "villains" of Start Up all got their just desserts.

Yes, I absolutely loved the Prime Minster in TKEM, and thought she was one of the highlights of the show. Her acting was amazing as well. And I felt her actions were for the most part justifiable, and she was a potentially grey character. KES decided though to make her full on villain for whatever reason, and her ending really sucked.

For once, i'd like a Kdrama where the villain is a bit more grey throughout and finds redemption in their own way.

AFAIK, they just pretend the whole first episode never happened.

But if they did have a convo, I expect it would go something like this:

During Chulseok, HJP and SDM have a conversation.

HJP: Grandma looks so happy, don't you think Dalmi?

SDM: Bruh, she be depressed and stuff, She always sleeping.

HJP: Oh no!, I wonder if there is something we can do for her.

SDM: I think she miss her dogs or somefin, I was like going to get her a dog stand.

HJP: That sounds like a great idea, we can certainly do that.

SDM: We? Bruh, you ain't fam, so back off.

HJP: Oh sorry, I didn't mean to overstep my boundaries.

SDM: Yeah bruh, this is a family event, don't know why you here.

HJP: Oh didn't Halmoni ever tell you of how we knew each other?

SDM: (bites carrot stick)

Mom: Great idea, imma do that, gotta make sure Halmoni leaves me in her will.



SDM: Mom you a genius, how you know halmoni would love the stand.

Mom: Because i'm smart now.

Heavy as in Melo, or psychological thriller style?

Thank you, I tried to minimize the spoilers as much as I can in my reviews. I also felt the first 6 episode had promise. I kept expecting to see Silicon Valley and Cyrano De Bergerac combination, but instead, the show travelled back in time to the same old tired Kdrama formulas, and we ended with what we got.

So much potential wasted. Oh well :)))

Not having watched that many Kdrama, are there any characters that are beautifully grey, or are all characters in Kdrama super white or super black?

It seems that recently, if the writer has painted you as a villain, or vilified you, your ending arc will 100% be BS or bad. I've seen it in TKEM, and I've seen it in Start Up. I actually really enjoy redemption arcs, and always love seeing villains with tinges of grey eventually do the right thing in the end, even if they are still punished.

It's what makes western shows amazing compared to Kdrama, western shows know how to create grey characters.

I feel bad for SDM's mom.

Going from an independent woman who took care of her family's household and was smart enough to plan her daughter's future.

To

A spoiled woman who does not know how to do basic math, has completely forgotten how to clean, and loss quite a few brain cells.

Start Up has taught me, if your female, and you suddenly become rich, your going to forget everything you learned when you are poor. Also being rich makes you less smart, because when your rich, you don't use your brain at all.

Start Up logic :)))

And the mystery of why female writers continually write weak female characters continues...

Realistically, I'm not sure HJP will be invited to many family events, it's just kind of awkward to have the guy who liked your wife. Even people without jealousy issues aren't comfortable with this type of situation, much less NDS who is pretty insecure.

I've already assumed that since NDS and SDM are married now that HJP doesn't come to visit too much anymore out of respect, and he is not invited to chulseok anymore, since technically SDM's family is complete with a male figure in the house, having HJP over would just cause tension.

"The Wolf of Sandbox"

That could be the title of the Start Up spin off, where HJP is the main lead this time :)))

I thought you'd like that :)))

SDM relationship with her Grandma was really quite sweet, but her relationship with the rest of her family, leaves much to be desired.

Also, I didn't quite enjoy that when SDM found out SST was going to SF, she was already making plans on what to do there, the things she'll need and stuff, and completely forgot Halmoni, and of course the mom enters back into the life to be able to take care of Halmoni. It felt so uncharacteristic for the girl who gave up college for her Grandma. Like it didn't even cross in her mind for one second who would take care of Halmoni. I was quite perturbed by that scene, it felt selfish and childish of SDM. The scene with Chulseok with SDM, HJP, Grandma and mom was one of the sweetest family scene of the show. The fact that HJP will no longer be able to enjoy that same feeling in that family gathering is painfully disappointing IMO.

Then NDS not calling his parents for 3 years, not only bothered me, but many fans during that episode. NDS relationship with his family is really poor, and not a good representation of Asian families in Asia.

Ahh so NDS father worked with PHR before. Seems like she likes reusing actors/actress she's worked with before. Interestingly, the people on the comment section who enjoyed WYWS, didn't enjoy Start Up.

I think PHR is a lot like KES for TKEM. She tried to be different and unique, but failed. Both KES and PHR had a miscue on understanding what modern kdrama audience like to see. And dull ML like NDS and Lee Gon just don't cut it anymore.

Great post, and it parallels my own feeling for the show in comparison to Cyrano.

It's hard to let HJP go. It's hard to be ok with seeing such a great character not get his happy ending, irrespective of SDM.

I completely agree with this post. And it's not just HJP, you can count on WIJ as well.

Because HJP and WIJ existed in the drama, they provided a mature and independent POV that detracted from NDS and SDM. From the beginning, there were signs that WIJ was going to have a redemption arc, and in 2021, redemption arcs and grey characters are really interesting due to their inner complexities. But unfortunately, the audience was robbed of WIJ's story arc, and she literally became a shell company for NDS and SDM to take over to become successful.

HJP experience the same thing, because not only was he given a more interesting backstory complete with a complex personality and hidden insecurities. When paralleled to a bland Gary Stu NDS, all HJP managed to do is make NDS look worse.

Remove, HJP and WIJ, and the viewers have no choice but to root for SDM and NDS, and are forced to learn to love their many flaws. But since PHR gave audience another source to focus on in HJP and WIJ, it ended up making her ML and FL quite weaker in comparison.

I think this is what happens when you have smart, mature commenters tackle an incomplete work. We cant' help seeing an unfinished project rot away, and so we banded together to try to make sense of the jumble of wires and broken code, until the project resembles something that barely works.

All those countless theories, analysis and comments serve to brighten up, an otherwise dull plot. I think for a lot of fans, without the efforts of the women and men in the comment section, the ride of watching Start Up would not be as fun.

And for the most part, the 30k comments we will eventually have, includes a lot of well written analyses from multiple members of the MDL community, regardless of which side they decided to ship.

Snowdrop may eventually go past the 30k mark we set here in Start Up, but in terms of quality, Start Up comment section is up there as one of the legendary comment section in MDL.

I believe dramas like Castle, Bones, New Girl, How I met Your Mother, Friends, and etc... have always been meant for multi season runs. The writer normally has a 6-8 seasons in their mind. So after the success of the first season, they normally, really slow down the romance, and put in A LOT of fillers to extend the seasons, because more seasons = more money, as the episodic value rises per successful season. So these type of shows, will have the couple be a couple in much later seasons, otherwise they will lose all their plot points too early in the show's run. Also shows like the ones I mentioned above are very episodic in nature meaning, you can watch one episode, and not really get lost. Similar to CSI, where you can watch Season 3, Ep. 1 and Season 6, Ep. 18 and not really get lost in what is happening. Shows like Cobra Kai is different, with their limited runtime, each episode is so important, that if you miss even 1 episode, you'll miss crucial parts of the story. Same for the very popular Bridgerton show on Netflix.

My point in discussing the runtimes is that, even shows that follow the storytelling narrative style of a show like Start Up finds a way to produce excellent characterizations complete with flaws, strengths, weaknesses, downfall, and rises. While Start Up wasted too much time showing unnecessary scenes, filler episodes, and way too much teenage angst for a supposedly mature drama. The show would have benefited from a fairly mature NDS from the onset, rather than giving us a NDS who had to run through the gamut of emotions a lovestruck teenager feels in High School, then to show him only grow up on literally, the last episode, that had to be verbally validated by SDM in the car.

I haven't seen Jdrama. But Kdrama has always been to my assertion been about family. Which is one of the reasons I like Kdrama. Brotherly/sisterl/paternal/maternal bonds have always been Kdrama's strength . Unfortunately, save for HJP and Grandma's relationship, the familial relationship in Start Up is lacking, with NDS and his parent's relationship being the worst offender. Family relationships are a big thing for me, being asian, and I'm confused why PHR would write the asian family dynamic in Start Up in such poor light.

You mentioned you've seen all of PHR's previous work, is she a writer who just does not give much emphasis to family ties and relationship? Maybe this is just her writing style, and she doesn't focus or care on family ties too much.

WIJ, was suppose to be one of the leads. Someone actually added up all her screen times throughout the show, and it barely crossed the Cameo mark. Which is unfortunate as Kang Hanna is an excellent actress, she was severely underutilized in this show.

Love triangles create ship wars, which in turn creates more online buzz, and that is probably what the writer had intended. The problem is, most love triangles normally end around the 10th episode or earlier. Start Up did it for almost the entirety of the show, all the way till the end of Ep. 15, which is really distracting and frustrating.

I think that Start Up is up there in terms of poorly closing out of secondary arcs. TKEM was pretty bad at this too, but they at least devoted 2-5 minutes of screen time to close out secondary storylines. Start Up used a photo montage, and didn't close out all the plot holes even.

I wrote about this recently, Start Up comes out at 1,390 minutes. Which in western TV runtimes equates to 2-3 seasons of western television. Did you know that Start Up in terms of runtime is actually longer than all 3 seasons of Cobra Kai? Surprising isn't it. With such a long runtime, I'm surprised they could not do a better job of developing the characters fully, or giving proper screen time to the other leads. Cobra Kai also had a love triangle, yet they are able to develop 6 different characters completely, with decent screen time for all of them. Kdrama's like Start Up misses the mark in these categories, and puts in WAY too much filler in what should be a tighter script.

I can only guess that these increased runtimes are only to increase the number of PPL they are able to place, because Start Up had so many unnecessary filler scenes, I felt confused as to why they were even there.

I think for someone who only watched Kdrama, maybe Start Up is not bad. For someone like myself though , who watches shows from different countries, I am exposed to many different type of shows. So my standards and expectations are higher, since i've seen some really great shows on Netflix. So when I see similar plotting, and similar characters in Start Up, my expectation of what it will be also rises. Like i've seen the nerdy, logical ML done well with consistent characterization. Seeing a "Sheldon" turn into a "Casanova" is a little bit disingenuous.

And unfortunately for me, I've seen Silicon Valley in HBO, so my expectation of a Startup type of show is also higher. And I've seen Cyrano De Bergerac, so my expectation of the story line was also messed up. Maybe if Start Up had just been a more unique idea, rather than a mashup of many other shows, the disappointment wouldn't be as large.

Like I said it depends on the subject being discussed. When it came to coding, NDS is very confident, just like HJP is confident in his investment acumen. When it came to love, both men actually have very little self belief, the only difference is that NDS is very vocal at it, while HJP, is unwilling to appear vulnerable and hides it.

While NDS had to climb a mountain to increase his standards of success to be SDM's boyfriend. HJP had an equally hard mountain to climb over the mental block he set upon himself that he is a person who does not deserved to be loved. It's an issue orphan's get that "my own mother/father did not love me, and gave me up for adoption, so I don't deserve love from anyone". It's an issue of HJP that is deep inside, that becomes more and more apparent as each episode unfolds.

Yes, it further proved my theory that HJP's real happiness is being part of a family, and receiving love. Something that the writer denied him. A lot of HJP fans were hoping for a final meeting of some other girl in the last episode, to show that HJP may receive some happiness with another person, but that never happened.

I think you are beginning to understand the frustrations the fans of HJP are having. The disappointment is not because HJP did not end with SDM, but rather that HJP, a well defined character that was complex enough to be a ML, did not receive a happy ending, considering his underdog status. It felt like showing HJP have any ounce of happiness would detract from the happy ending of SDM and NDS. Which of course is not the case. If the writer had added maybe 5-10 minutes of a closing arc for both HJP and even WIJ, the fans would not have given the show such harsh criticism.

The writer's insistence of monopolizing the storylines and screen time with the ML and FL, who a lot of people had felt disconnected with at this point proved to be the show's undoing. As the show ended, majority of people were searching for HJP. People discussed about HJP. And people lamented about HJP. It only goes to show, that the writer wrote HJP too well, and gave him so much complexity, that people were so invested in his character. NDS and SDM's characterization on the other hand was so cliché's that most people would not consider their love story the best of all time, because it's not. In the end, PHR succeeded in creating a great character in HJP, who unfortunately had a tragic ending.

I think it's a bit of an overstatement that Creed would immediately lose his entire career if he loses to rocky. The film is a 1976 film, and upsets in sports, especially boxing happen all the time. In fact, there have been controversies about these so called "Upsets", because of the prolific presence of sports betting in boxing history, some fights have even been criticized for being fixed. Because normally, when a relatively unknown fight fights a champion, the sports line for the unknown is at a very profitable margin like 1:50 or 1:100. So price fixing has happened in the past. In fact given the year the film was made, it is entirely possible that it was based on Muhammad Ali's defeat of George Foreman, where Ali was the underdog. Did George Foreman's career go up in smoke? No it didn't. Upsets in other sports, including boxing has happened prior to 1976, in fact, because of boxing being just one night event, vs a series, upsets happen quite frequently.

Please check this link from Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_match-fixing_incidents#Boxing

But rocky is still the underdog, because Creed has the following things going for him. He has fans, he has a successful career, he has money, he is popular, he probably is not a loner. Rocky had not much of anything, that is why the audience loved seeing him get a love life, a sort of family, friends, and eventually fame. None of the things Rocky got detracted from the things Creed already had. Rocky being famous, did not take away Creed's fans, or his family, or his career. Although it's always embarrassing to lose to a rookie, it's not impossible.

Now, when we relate this to Start Up, you first need to define, NDS is an underdog of what? Because in Rocky, the subject is boxing, and not love. So we are talking in terms of each fighter's skill. Apollo being from the old guard, and NDS being a fresh rookie.

In Start Up, NDS and HJP are not in the same industry. HJP isn't a coder or programmer, and NDS isn't some rookie investment guru. So they are not exactly competing in the same field. It's like watching a boxer fight a basketball player. Now is the issue money? I've already explained why Money is a poor barometer of who is the underdog.

That leaves love then. And it makes sense, since NDS, HJP and SDM are in a love triangle. And you'll see that everything you've pointed out in your Rocky example, actually favors NDS as Creed, and HJP as Rocky. NDS has had love for all his life, compared to HJP, who only has the companionship of Yong Shil recently. And you'll see also see that NDS has majority of the love and support of the show, while HJP has sporadic support from Grandma, whose support actually wavers. So in terms of the romantic storyline, and who has the more emotionally successful life, NDS is the clear goliath and champion, while HJP is really the fresh rookie, who unlike Rocky, actually loses in the end. And using your examples further, HJP never had the confidence in himself that he deserves to be love, in fact he even asked grandma "Don't I deserve it, why can't it be me?" One of the more emotional touching scenes in the drama highlights how much he feels that he deserves to be loved, but he lacks to confidence to grasp it for himself. But being the underdog, we all wished that he would be rewarded just like Rocky did, but alas, the writer did not agree.

There are two scenes in the show that shows us how much HJP values being part of a family. The first scene was in ep. 13 I believe, when SDM's mom and Halmoni was making sure HJP had some food to bring home, and we see how happy that makes him. Then we see NDS parents treat HJP so well, like part of the family, and it also makes him happy. It was very clear from the show that what HJP wanted more than the love of SDM was to belong or be part of a family. Something NDS always had, but didn't appreciate. The writer denied this with her ending.

If were talking about Money, sure HJP had more of it, but eventually NDS earns more in the end. So I guess in terms of Money and Fiscal Success, NDS is the underdog. But you already said there are other points where NDS is an underdog, so I'd like to hear it, other than financial status.

In fact, rather than the power walk of the foursome walking out. A more emotionally strong one would be to have a scene or heck, even a picture, where it is shown that HJP, NDS, WIJ, SDM along with Halmoni and mom, having a dinner during Chuseok and having fun. But nothing, there is no satisfaction on HJP's ending arc. We can only assume he eventually found a family or happiness elsewhere. But assumption vs actuality are two different things. For someone who was invested in HJP's happiness, seeing him unable to properly grieve, forced into a BFF relationship with NDS, and act as a security net for SDM and NDS because he is forced to by his boss, feels very disappointing.