Great explanation! I don't think people who point out the Mary-Sueness of the characters necessarily hate them…
That is an excellent suggestion. And with the team ZZY has assembled, they should have given something 'revolutionary' like this a try. Ah, only if!.... You're right, it isn't the story per se (which is tired, old, and tropey, and we have seen pieces of it, via older drama adaptations of newer webnovels....) It's the execution that is lacking, and I very much agree. The 'old' could have been repackaged as 'new'. Afterall, the 'superhero' movies you speak of from Hollywood, are much, much older in concept.... it's just that a modern superhero movie won't be directed/ executed the same way as in the 80's. And that's where things could have substantially gone better for TRP. :( :(
Lol. I just came to check the actors' ages, because I think he looks too young compared to her, especially since…
Ditto, there are some moments/ angles where he looks alarmingly younger than her, and I wonder if it was done to remind us, that he indeed is younger than her (by 3years?) IRL? :P :P
Great explanation! I don't think people who point out the Mary-Sueness of the characters necessarily hate them…
Absolutely agreed. I didn't touch upon this aspect that you speak of, only because people (like critics, reviewers, and genuine enthusiasts) who have dissected these Mary Sue characters have found them to be incredibly one-dimensional, flat, almost cookie-cutter, and certainly an indicator of 'bad/ immature writing'. Morally grey, complex characters with questionable morals and ethics always make for a more compelling watch, and are agreed upon as 'nuanced writing'. But this entire concept is very subjective, because 'writing quality' differs from person to person and a 'Mary Sue' shouldn't hinder a great majority's enjoyment of the story. My only complaint is, okay, we got a stock-character... fine. Mary Sues are stock-characters like any other, but they end up getting more hate than they deserve. Nobody is complaining about megastar actors picking a 'Tsundere-ML', or a 'rich obnoxious CEO' for the umpteenth time. Those are even MORE dated than the Mary Sue trend. The attack on Mary Sues appears to be a tad sexist imo, and shouldn't be made into such a big deal.
watched all 31 episodes and I'm so so in love with the male lead, dude, he's so freaking charismatic, especially…
I'm liking the fact that Xiao Qi isn't a hero burdened by some tortured angst or emotional trauma, despite having lived through real horror on earth (warfield). He isn't a damaged human who needs to be salvaged and fixed by the heroine. Thank heavens for this. Awu, you found yourself a solid man. This one's a keeper. Also, I'm loving how nobody schooled her into being a military wife, and she isn't even consciously doing it to fulfill her wifely duties. It's just her character to *always* step up and rise to the occasion. I'm pretty sure, she doesn't even realise deep-down, the kind of circumstances she has to steel herself to face, should the day come. But you know, when the day does come, she'll live by the code of honor. Salute to her!!
As a God of War, normally they would cast an actor looking angry with no smiles to make him look fearsome. Not…
Absolutely, as ZZY's first choice was Chang Chen (and quite rightly so, for that fear-inducing General who never smiles)... but I think I like this interpretation more, as it hasn't been done too many times before :)
Yea, where as Zhou Yi Wei been all my drama watching live? This role was made for him!!! We need more of him!!…
Excellent point. There are times when he looks like japanese actor Oguri Shun, other times when he looks like korean actor Yoo Ji Tae (healer)... and on the recent Happy Camp episode, he looked like Jack Ma. This man is an acting as well as appearance-chaneleon.
Sujin was a snake in TMOPB, and a wannabe side-hoe. She is still one, in True Beauty. What's up with characters named Sujin?! They never get the hint?! :/ :/
Hello guys ! I am new here. I have been lurking here (since the grand Joy of life days) but now I had to login…
This man has superb eye-acting skills. I am 100 percent convinced he's in love with ZZY's character. Also, seasoned actors who have traditionally been casted as romantic MLs.... hmm, why are they always overshadowed by actors taking these roles for the first time? I have recently been following 'filmography trajectory' of 3 such actors (who are post mid-30's and have done a variety of supporting roles, villains, shady characters...you name it)... we had all been waiting for a romantic ML role. And these guys finally got it, and blew the experienced-ones out of the park. Guess that's called real-talent. *_*
He has this stillness that far exceeds usual composure some Chinese MLs accustomed us to. Quite extraordinary.
Ugh you know what's so unique about Xiao Qi?! Usually such comparable men you speak of, from c-drama land, are usually emotionally distant, taciturn, asutere and possessing of some sort of emotional constipation, and each of them require the FL to bring them out of their shells, transform them for the better and teach them to love. But not Xiao Qi. He is what he is. He is capable of immense love since Day 1, and despite a sad and difficult childhood, he hasn't let it affect him. He is expressive and assertive when he needs to be, when others need him to rise to the occassion.... yet he is conscious enough not to let it violate others' space. He is a war-hero, but he can very well fade into the background, and lead from the back, if necessary. There is an undercurrent of self-confidence in himself and in his own worth, and he doesnt always feel the need to hog the limelight. There is something SO charming about this, I can't explain! *_*
watched all 31 episodes and I'm so so in love with the male lead, dude, he's so freaking charismatic, especially…
On a purely superficial note, his broad shoulders and back look so reliable. Just like a General's should. Something about his unshakeable presence is so comforting. He also looks like somebody who gives tight, warm hugs, and I melt every single time. Gosh, I'm a puddle of goo T_T
Haha..... the ML here is also Gary Stu lol..... save the actress at the right timing all the time.
I haven't reached the badass-Awu bits yet... But yeah, she reminds me of Scarlett O'Hara from Gone With the Wind. Rando comparison, but yeah. Both these women are GOAL! *_*
Haha..... the ML here is also Gary Stu lol..... save the actress at the right timing all the time.
You know what, since 'readers/viewers' of such content are mostly female, hence a FL is more likely to be recognized as a Mary Sue, as opposed to the ML being recognized as a Gary Stu, because 'women' are more critical towards other females, real or fictional. Aside from Xiao Qi coming to save our heroine/ AND save the city/ save the day all the time...there are other reasons too why he's a Gary Stu. And he isn't getting half the hate the FL is. In fact, his 'perfection' is seen as swoony!! (and i am SOLIDLY on that camp... he's such a dreamboat); whereas the FL being a Mary Sue, is seen as annoying. Why this hypocrisy? T_T
@MN x... about the age thing, I remember a similar, but also reverse incident that happened with Fan BingBing's…
Yeah I agree, with switching out actors after the time gap, the backlash could be even more severe. I guess haters just gonna hate, eh? :P I haven't seen Moon Embracing the Sun, but it's a period drama I think where they switched out younger with older actors??? (and the younger ones are considered 'hallyu stars' of their generation now...) Any idea how that came along? But yeah you're right, no shade to the ML/FL there (kim soo-hyun and the other lady)... but yeah, Zhang Ziyi is a class of her own, she's a tough act to follow...err, open? There were these absolutely mind-blowing scenes of her steeling her resolve of giving up on her childhood love, and entering the arranged marriage for her family's sake. You're right, it's really ambitious to assume those CRITICAL scenes could be delivered by a younger actress with such finesse. Ugh, I'm just going to accept it as it is, because I love ZZY on my screen. And I am head-over-heels for ZYW's portrayal of the general here. (no adolescent twig could have done him justice...) T_T
https://youtu.be/vQ9o4bY8UX4I am smiling like an idiot while watching this:)P.S: pls don't reply that I shouldn't…
The ONLY complaint I have of KSH's side profile shots is that it captures only ONE dimple at a time. His beautiful nose compensates to a great extent, especially against sunlight. But nah xD :P
Are the leads here Mary Sues? > Mary Sue is a stock-character, often female, who is defined as somebody being unrealistically perfect, and also devoid of character weaknesses. The 'male' version of it exists in literature, and is called as a 'Gary Stu'.
Thus she will have all or most of these character strengths: - Be Honest, Determined, Honorable, Courageous, Brave (even if she can't do martial arts), Have Moral Integrity, Strong sense of responsibility & justice, and Possessing immense capacity to love, forgive and be patient.
AND she will be devoid of character weaknesses, like: - Jealousy, Power-hunger, Infidelity, Haughtiness, Vengefulness, Insecurity, Impulsiveness, Pettiness, Emotionally Manipulative, etc etc.
AND any of the other negative characters she might possess, is used for a greater good, and a higher purpose. -Like being shrewd & calculative to protect her family, or having pride in one's own worth without being boastful or haughty.
A Mary Sue, is often mistaken for being a 'benign, little pushover and a complete doormat' because she's associated with positive qualities like 'love and forgiveness' and lacking negative qualities like 'jealousy'. However, a character who satisfies all of the above, and in addition to that, say, is loud, initially bratty, states her opinions loudly and has a spine of steel, is STILL very much a Mary Sue.
But here's the thing: I don't see a problem with Mary Sues as leads. Infact, all Mary Sues are good human beings. As for stock characters, it's like 'Yamato Nadeshiko' or a 'Byronic Hero'. I have no idea why Mary Sues get all the flak.... yes they are unrealistically perfect, but this literature is also FICTION!. Besides, media has 'more problematic' stock character depictions, like the 'bully with the heart of gold', which somehow justifies and reinforces 'bad behavior' yet nobody is stuck up on those. -__- Sure, Mary Sues are tropey, but get such a bad rep, and such unnecessary hate. :/ :/
(ps. I agree Awu ticks a lot of these Mary-Sue boxes. Even Xiao Qi does too. I have heard lots say: 'Can this man BE anymore perfect?'.... and 'the only downside to this man, is that there is nothing unlikeable about him'. I still love them both, in all their unrealistic-ness, and don't see why these characters are getting all this hate just because?)
has anyone seen avenuex review on rebel princess cuz damn she tore it apart and i know her pov and all but no…
@MN x... about the age thing, I remember a similar, but also reverse incident that happened with Fan BingBing's Empress of China. The backlash she got, was for portraying Wu Zetian (the empress), who is supposed to be an older middle-aged lady (around 50's)... with prosthetics, CGI and makeup. She was roasted for portraying a character 'too old' (opposite to this case), and accused of holding the story out in a more 'age-appropriate' range (where the character is a young 20 to mid 30's) just so that she has 'more screen-time to look pretty' lmao!... People were mad, because they wanted to see the 'first female monarch of China'.... however, FBB is crowned 'female Emperor' only 5 episodes before the finale xD xD
>>>It isn't so much about age-shaming, rather about superstar leading-ladies refusing to give up little spotlight and some screen-time, to actors who are more age-appropriate to portray the character (in FBB's case, it would have been someone older than her; and in ZZY's case, it would be someone younger than her)
has anyone seen avenuex review on rebel princess cuz damn she tore it apart and i know her pov and all but no…
Regarding the age-thing...while I don't have any problems with ZZY pretending to be a 15-yo (because I literally skipped 7 episodes because of the potential cringe)... I DO THINK because 1. ZZY has assembled such an amazing crew, she could have tried to scout supremely talented, under-the-radar actors to portray a younger-version of all the characters in Awu's generation (yes, that includes, Awu, the princes, Xiao Qi, the wives of the brothers and the princes, etc.)
2. The story has a natural 3 year-time gap, after which all the older generation characters like the PM, Awu's mom, Emperor, Empress could have been styled slightly older, and replace the entire generation of Awu's, with the older/ seasoned actors. Is ZZY more believable as an 18 y/o than a 15 y/o? Maybe marginally. But would 'haters' have complained less? ABSOLUTELY YES!. This idea would have worked better, AND the seasoned actors would only have to give up about 7 episodes worth of screen-time. Pretty fair trade imo. Three years, as we see in the storyline, is enough to mentally age characters by a decade (as they are forced to 'grow up overnight')...and I'd be sold on the physical age-upgrade TOO ^^ [NTM, it would have been a slick transition, switching from a 'young' Xiao Qi to an 'older' Xiao Qi :P]
Now finding a rugged 25/ 27 y/o old actor for Xiao Qi, a 15/20 y/o dainty actress for Awu (who isn't annoying)... maybe a challenge, agreed. But for someone of ZZY's standing, its easy task for her to audition and cherry-pick talents. She can literally go to her alma-mater, and pick young students from those classes, maybe even train a couple of the young-actors while she's at it! I think a cast change with the time-skip would have made for more compelling story-telling. And this has been done in drama-land before. I can't believe they didn't anticipate this backlash. But I guess, you can't make everybody happy! :D
I see what you're saying, I seen lots of her ranting because I love to rant myself....... but I must say.....…
I think a reviewer of her caliber and scale watches entirely too many c-dramas every year. So the stuff that appears fresh to us, may not be the case with AvenueX. This is a 'Big Female Lead' drama, we can all agree. I for one have started watching dramas very recently. Others may have been watching for quite long, but they watch sparingly watch a few. Since the Rebel Princess is 'an ancestor' novel of this genre, most of the previous adaptations of 'newer' works have already shown stuff in TRP, which was fresh when the novel released, but is considered 'tired and tropey' now. I haven't watched Xiao Chuo yet, but if I were to pick that up after TRP, I would rant about it for stealing stuff from TPP :P BFL dramas... let's see....the actresses usually always have bigger/ more rabid fanbase, and thus more screentime, and she somehow become a crucial center-piece of the plot. So TRP fits this definition atleast, without going into the whole Mary-Sue arguement. I haven't yet watched Ming-lan, Xiao Chuo, Zhen-Huan, Ruyi, Weiyoung, Mi-Yue, Hao-lan, BBJX etc. [only considering 'court-palace' dramas, and not counting BFL xianxia and wuxia dramas, like TMOPB and LoF] The only ones I have watched is, is Wu Zetian (why?), Yanxi Palace, and Empress Ki (altho that's a k-drama). Thus, TRP, despite using a typical plot progression as all those dramas listed above... appears fresh to me. I can imagine folks who have watched ALL those BFL dramas, and more... and BFL dramas of xianxia and wuxia genres too... must be SO frustrated because it's nothing new. With the scale of crew ZZY has assembled, she could have done something perhaps... fresher? Did we really *need* an adaptation for TRP, after *all those* other endless BFL dramas listed above? [objectively no, but my inner Xiao-Qi fangirl begs to disagree on a completely superficial reason, lol!] hehehehe So, I understand where her 'rant' is coming from (yes, she watches entirely TOO many dramas, because that's literally her job!).... but I don't 'relate' to it, as I don't share her perspective. I think people who don't watch as many dramas as her, are a LOT more forgiving towards TRP, where we can leave prejudice aside, and enjoy it for what it really is.
You're right, it isn't the story per se (which is tired, old, and tropey, and we have seen pieces of it, via older drama adaptations of newer webnovels....) It's the execution that is lacking, and I very much agree. The 'old' could have been repackaged as 'new'. Afterall, the 'superhero' movies you speak of from Hollywood, are much, much older in concept.... it's just that a modern superhero movie won't be directed/ executed the same way as in the 80's. And that's where things could have substantially gone better for TRP. :( :(
My only complaint is, okay, we got a stock-character... fine. Mary Sues are stock-characters like any other, but they end up getting more hate than they deserve. Nobody is complaining about megastar actors picking a 'Tsundere-ML', or a 'rich obnoxious CEO' for the umpteenth time. Those are even MORE dated than the Mary Sue trend. The attack on Mary Sues appears to be a tad sexist imo, and shouldn't be made into such a big deal.
Also, I'm loving how nobody schooled her into being a military wife, and she isn't even consciously doing it to fulfill her wifely duties. It's just her character to *always* step up and rise to the occasion. I'm pretty sure, she doesn't even realise deep-down, the kind of circumstances she has to steel herself to face, should the day come. But you know, when the day does come, she'll live by the code of honor. Salute to her!!
What's up with characters named Sujin?! They never get the hint?! :/ :/
Aside from Xiao Qi coming to save our heroine/ AND save the city/ save the day all the time...there are other reasons too why he's a Gary Stu. And he isn't getting half the hate the FL is. In fact, his 'perfection' is seen as swoony!! (and i am SOLIDLY on that camp... he's such a dreamboat); whereas the FL being a Mary Sue, is seen as annoying. Why this hypocrisy? T_T
But yeah you're right, no shade to the ML/FL there (kim soo-hyun and the other lady)... but yeah, Zhang Ziyi is a class of her own, she's a tough act to follow...err, open?
There were these absolutely mind-blowing scenes of her steeling her resolve of giving up on her childhood love, and entering the arranged marriage for her family's sake. You're right, it's really ambitious to assume those CRITICAL scenes could be delivered by a younger actress with such finesse. Ugh, I'm just going to accept it as it is, because I love ZZY on my screen. And I am head-over-heels for ZYW's portrayal of the general here. (no adolescent twig could have done him justice...) T_T
> Mary Sue is a stock-character, often female, who is defined as somebody being unrealistically perfect, and also devoid of character weaknesses. The 'male' version of it exists in literature, and is called as a 'Gary Stu'.
Thus she will have all or most of these character strengths:
- Be Honest, Determined, Honorable, Courageous, Brave (even if she can't do martial arts), Have Moral Integrity, Strong sense of responsibility & justice, and Possessing immense capacity to love, forgive and be patient.
AND she will be devoid of character weaknesses, like:
- Jealousy, Power-hunger, Infidelity, Haughtiness, Vengefulness, Insecurity, Impulsiveness, Pettiness, Emotionally Manipulative, etc etc.
AND any of the other negative characters she might possess, is used for a greater good, and a higher purpose.
-Like being shrewd & calculative to protect her family, or having pride in one's own worth without being boastful or haughty.
A Mary Sue, is often mistaken for being a 'benign, little pushover and a complete doormat' because she's associated with positive qualities like 'love and forgiveness' and lacking negative qualities like 'jealousy'. However, a character who satisfies all of the above, and in addition to that, say, is loud, initially bratty, states her opinions loudly and has a spine of steel, is STILL very much a Mary Sue.
But here's the thing: I don't see a problem with Mary Sues as leads. Infact, all Mary Sues are good human beings. As for stock characters, it's like 'Yamato Nadeshiko' or a 'Byronic Hero'. I have no idea why Mary Sues get all the flak.... yes they are unrealistically perfect, but this literature is also FICTION!. Besides, media has 'more problematic' stock character depictions, like the 'bully with the heart of gold', which somehow justifies and reinforces 'bad behavior' yet nobody is stuck up on those. -__-
Sure, Mary Sues are tropey, but get such a bad rep, and such unnecessary hate. :/ :/
(ps. I agree Awu ticks a lot of these Mary-Sue boxes. Even Xiao Qi does too. I have heard lots say: 'Can this man BE anymore perfect?'.... and 'the only downside to this man, is that there is nothing unlikeable about him'. I still love them both, in all their unrealistic-ness, and don't see why these characters are getting all this hate just because?)
~Thank you for reading this rant xD xD
She was roasted for portraying a character 'too old' (opposite to this case), and accused of holding the story out in a more 'age-appropriate' range (where the character is a young 20 to mid 30's) just so that she has 'more screen-time to look pretty' lmao!... People were mad, because they wanted to see the 'first female monarch of China'.... however, FBB is crowned 'female Emperor' only 5 episodes before the finale xD xD
>>>It isn't so much about age-shaming, rather about superstar leading-ladies refusing to give up little spotlight and some screen-time, to actors who are more age-appropriate to portray the character (in FBB's case, it would have been someone older than her; and in ZZY's case, it would be someone younger than her)
I DO THINK because
1. ZZY has assembled such an amazing crew, she could have tried to scout supremely talented, under-the-radar actors to portray a younger-version of all the characters in Awu's generation (yes, that includes, Awu, the princes, Xiao Qi, the wives of the brothers and the princes, etc.)
2. The story has a natural 3 year-time gap, after which all the older generation characters like the PM, Awu's mom, Emperor, Empress could have been styled slightly older, and replace the entire generation of Awu's, with the older/ seasoned actors. Is ZZY more believable as an 18 y/o than a 15 y/o? Maybe marginally. But would 'haters' have complained less? ABSOLUTELY YES!. This idea would have worked better, AND the seasoned actors would only have to give up about 7 episodes worth of screen-time. Pretty fair trade imo. Three years, as we see in the storyline, is enough to mentally age characters by a decade (as they are forced to 'grow up overnight')...and I'd be sold on the physical age-upgrade TOO ^^
[NTM, it would have been a slick transition, switching from a 'young' Xiao Qi to an 'older' Xiao Qi :P]
Now finding a rugged 25/ 27 y/o old actor for Xiao Qi, a 15/20 y/o dainty actress for Awu (who isn't annoying)... maybe a challenge, agreed. But for someone of ZZY's standing, its easy task for her to audition and cherry-pick talents. She can literally go to her alma-mater, and pick young students from those classes, maybe even train a couple of the young-actors while she's at it! I think a cast change with the time-skip would have made for more compelling story-telling. And this has been done in drama-land before. I can't believe they didn't anticipate this backlash. But I guess, you can't make everybody happy! :D
BFL dramas... let's see....the actresses usually always have bigger/ more rabid fanbase, and thus more screentime, and she somehow become a crucial center-piece of the plot. So TRP fits this definition atleast, without going into the whole Mary-Sue arguement. I haven't yet watched Ming-lan, Xiao Chuo, Zhen-Huan, Ruyi, Weiyoung, Mi-Yue, Hao-lan, BBJX etc. [only considering 'court-palace' dramas, and not counting BFL xianxia and wuxia dramas, like TMOPB and LoF]
The only ones I have watched is, is Wu Zetian (why?), Yanxi Palace, and Empress Ki (altho that's a k-drama). Thus, TRP, despite using a typical plot progression as all those dramas listed above... appears fresh to me. I can imagine folks who have watched ALL those BFL dramas, and more... and BFL dramas of xianxia and wuxia genres too... must be SO frustrated because it's nothing new. With the scale of crew ZZY has assembled, she could have done something perhaps... fresher? Did we really *need* an adaptation for TRP, after *all those* other endless BFL dramas listed above? [objectively no, but my inner Xiao-Qi fangirl begs to disagree on a completely superficial reason, lol!] hehehehe
So, I understand where her 'rant' is coming from (yes, she watches entirely TOO many dramas, because that's literally her job!).... but I don't 'relate' to it, as I don't share her perspective. I think people who don't watch as many dramas as her, are a LOT more forgiving towards TRP, where we can leave prejudice aside, and enjoy it for what it really is.