BadPenny

New-year cheating on Both is not cool. Poor Both!

Thank you for letting me know. I had been hoping for a proper intimate scene. I guess they decided not to give us one. Ah well.

I've watched all 16 eps now, and I'm wondering if the Johan/North bath kiss (shown in the trailer) already happened and I somehow missed it. Or is it happening in the special episode on Feb 1st?

I've not run into any actual hate for the show. And that is partly why I felt you meant criticism when you said "hate". Because I have long experience in bl fandoms with people purposefully conflating the two. I appreciate your clarification. I still think it's fair to throw some pretty intense venting toward New 🤣 but I agree that the actors are mostly faultless here.

I will leave off with an apology for misunderstanding your stance on criticism.

I am only watching for them.

They aren't side CP's. All 4 pairings are main characters. They each have their own book. This first season features the first two books. So the plot of Tag! You're Mine and How Much Is Your Love feature this season. The other two books get focus next season.

That being said, they're doing a really bad job telling the first story in a way that makes it at all compelling.

I wish I knew how he was getting work. I suspect some nepotism involved. Same with the writers. The two women who did the script for this drama only have We Are as their other credits. How do you land two well funded, prominent shows as your first projects?

And the combination of the bad writers and New's horrid directing doomed the quality of We Are and is doing the same here.

Exactly.

Oh! I just meant that the sex dream in the opening of the drama is also the first scene in the book.

I am not trying to convince you to hate the show. I answered you originally with very clear intent. Which was to counter your statement that the show is receiving "hate". I explained that it's not hate, it's very valid criticism. I will admit that's what caught my initial attention, because I often see badly made dramas being defended by refering to the valid criticism they recieve as "hate", in a short-hand attempt to delegitimize the criticism.

My point has always been that you can like the show if you want but doing so does not change the facts of its numerous faults or mean that the tons of backlash its recieving is "hate". You seem to have trouble separating "hate" from "criticism", and that's what caught my attention. One can certainly hate a show they are criticizing ( I despise Cutie Pie!), but the criticism of that, or any show, is not "recieving hate".

Had you originally said something along the lines of "Yeah, I get why there are some critics of this drama. The show has some probs. But I love it anyway" I would not have shared my perspective. I get it. There are dramas I adore that have some seriously terrible warts. Gen Y is an example. Any time I'm sick I pop it on and watch all the Wayu scenes. But objectively, it sucks. Bad pacing, flat acting due to really horrid direction, bad plot, iffy production values. The criticism Gen Y gets, based on those faults, is entirely fair. But I love it anyway.

So I hope that clears up your confusion. You caught my attention by conflating criticism with throwing hate. You can love this drama if you want, but that doesn't mean the criticism is unwarranted. It's based in VERY observable flaws. That was the entire point of my original post.

And I'm not sure you realize this, but I'm allowed to debate the merits of a show with other people posting here. Doing so is well within the TOS of this website. So maybe it's you who should do the blocking, if you can't handle that. Or perhaps, if all you want to do is share your love of the show (without having talks like these), you should consider doing so without addressing the criticism(hate) the show is getting. Because if you are addressing that criticism(hate) that others are sending, you are inviting a debate on said criticism(hate).

As for your points:

1. I feel it's pretty obvious what I meant there. The *proof* I referred to was this ststement of yours; "Several novel readers have said this series is doing great at following HillEaster’s novel...". By using the assertions of other people to support your argument, you are using their statements as evidence or "proof". And I was simply dismantling the relevancy of other peoples' opinions when defending your own. I've read the books and I disagree. While the show does okay at following the ABCD order of happenings, it has ruined the pace, stripped away very necessary context (that would have alieviated the confushion over the flashbacks), and created other problems.

2. Literally the only thing New ever filmed that was worth watching was UWMA. (It's also the only decent acting that Cooheart has ever done) Some time after that, I am convinced New's brain was stolen. We Are, in particular, was the worst paced, most boring, most wasteful of talent, worst plotted and most agregiously, pathetically written piece of trash bl that I have ever squandered my time on. I seriously regret having watched it. I want those hours of my life back. It was a criminal waste of Pond/Phuwin's last project together.

THAT'S hate. Honest, deep, uncompromising hate. I loath We Are. I despise it. However, don't worry. All of my hate for it is accompanied by well reasoned criticisms that demonstrate why I can't stand it.

I don't hate this drama. Yet. I am just deeply dissatisfied with many elements of it. There is one thing I like. North. Bas' performance, in spite of the director of this hot mess, is giving me what I need to stay. If he were not giving life to a very likable version of North, I'd have already given up on this show as just another failed New Siwaj debacle.

3. I agree with you here in that a drama following the source book closely does not equal that drama being any good. In this case it has nothing to do with it. The chronological order of plot has been followed, within reason, but the soul of the drama has been robbed anyway, and by a million cuts.

4. Again, I never tried to make you dislike the drama. There are many reasons to like any drama, including just because a member of the cast is your bias. I don't have a problem with you liking it. Feel free! I specifically addressed my concerns at you relegating criticism to "hate" and how that has the effect of taking a pot-shot at valid criticism. Even if that was not your intent. It's a common tactic to delegitimize opposing viewpoints by ascribing to them negative connotations.

So pop on as often as you like and state why you love this drama. Everyone should feel free to do so. But any time I see people coupling their appreciation for this drama with seemingly innocent or even coy condemnation of the criticism it's recieving, I'm inclined to answer with my arguments on why the criticism is well-deserved. And I will continue to do so.

I don't know if there is one. I don't think there is

You didn't miss it. They've made a mess of the plot is all.

Yes. I read the novels. I will tell you that the opening dream scene in the drama is canon. That dream is how the book opens. But it's been changed, either because they're going in a different direction, or because they don't want the beans spilled. I am guessing the former because the context and content missing give a whole other spin on why Easter was so rattled and why he might want never to see Hill again.. And I will say that the Wabi Sabi drama amps up Easter's whininess and extremely downplays Hill's creep factor, IMHO.

The show's writing is also MUCH more poorly paced than the book.

I hate dropping a series too. I watched We Are and hated it too. But I stuck it out and watched the whole season and I absolutely regret it. It was horrid in the exact same way this drama is. Same writers, same directors. So I will be very tempted to drop this if it doesn't improve for Johan/North's story.

I usually rate it at episode 3. Then again at the end if I changed my mind. I usually don't change my mind. For most dramas, watching 3 eps is enough to know how I feel. Tuxedo was an exception. At episode 3 I hated it. By the end I loved it.

In this case, only Johan/North could save this drama for me.

I've seen 6.8 dramas that were more watchable than this. But honestly, it's because the things I hate worst are spineless whining and boring plot. So this drama was designed to annoy me.

Between us was boring, even with the amazing Boon involved. And We Are was the worst drama I've ever seen. I absolutely hated it. It was so awful that I was genuinely shocked.

Lol! One of the only things I've watched Cooheart in was Until We Meet Again. So... My statistical sampling was too narrow. 🤣🤣🤣

1. You opened your reply by seemingly using the opinion of people who agree with you as a proof, Which, fair. Confirmation bias is a thing. But it goes both ways. The majority of watchers who agree with my take don't percieve ANY chemistry between Cooheart and Pond. So I'll stand by my criticisms. Cooheart's childish facial gymnastics and Pond's weird, owl-eyed staring does not constitute chemistry.

2. New Siwaj probably IS getting absolutely railed on social media, certainly about his lackluster and ineffectual directing. And he should be. His job is to guide desirable performances, manage story pacing, arrange the unfolding of shots to support emotional impact, decide on plot... basically run the show. So the many points at which this drama is an ineffectual mess are his fault. And this is further fortified by the fact that ALL his most recent dramas suffer in the exact same way. Crappy, boring pace. Half-assed plot cohesiveness, stupid sound effects, overdone and absurd charicatures instead of solid characters. A propensity for directing actors to perform whiney characters in the most ridiculous and gratingly cringey ways.

3. I am solidly betting you that for every person you produce that thinks this is a great rendition of the story found in the books, I can find a lover of the books who is tragically disappointed already.

4. I am perfectly aware where the plot is headed. Bit It doesn't matter where the plot is going. None of the criticisms depend on knowing where the story is going. Bad pacing is bad pacing, no matter where in the story we are. Boring plot is boring plot, no matter where the story is designed to go. Even if it gets more exciting later, that doesn't change that it's dead ass Boring right now. And the trite, dull, ridiculous female characterizations have been a solid complaint that does not depend upon knowing where the plot is headed. The general perception that Cooheart and Pond are both phoning this one in... also does not require knowledge of where this train will stop. So your assertion that not knowing where this (dubious) plot is headed somehow invalidates criticism of this drama? Nope.

And yes, the flashbacks are unnecessarily confusing. There's trickle-truthing the backstory (as was done in the book), and then there's whatever this mess is. There are stories where a confusing flashback or two serve a purpose. These situations exist for a reason. They're confusing because of a particular and interesting plot element. No such element exists here. And key context in the book is missing, (I suspect it's missing because they are choosing a gentler handling of some topics.) But the director and writers didn't compensate for the missing context with anythong meaningful.

Back when this drama first started filming. like day 1, Someone over on Twitter said Cooheart and Pond seemed to have all the chemistry of siblings. At the time I thought it was a deeply ungenerous opinion, considering it was day 1 of filming. Now I completely agree.

They aren't the main couple. They're the first couple. The author wrote 4 books and we only meet Hill/Easter first because the first book is about them. We're experiencing the stories in order of the books. Not that the script writing for the show is doing the story any justice.

That being said, the book with Johan/North is the most popular one for a reason. So possibly their episodes will be better.