You're very much correct in stating what you have said about Lian's actions. He has done all of those things,…
You were way too generous here, Jay. Not that I'm criticizing you. I'm just saying you handled it nicer than me.
The thing is, even if they develop Lian's character away from the toxic behavior down the road, it doesn't change that right now he's a raging mess of bad, bad choices. Those don't become better or suddenly more understandable just because later he learns to act better. So there's no point waiting until the end of the show to call out his behavior, as some have argued, since even if he improves--right now, in this moment, his behavior is still toxic.
And that heart to heart he might eventually have would need to be epic in order to make up for any of this. That apology would have to be the magnum opus of apologies the veracity of which would need be ratified with an affidavit from someone who isn't a raging dick.
Also, I shouldn't forget to mention that I loved that you addressed context. Because it's been a problem the whole series. The toxic behaviors are exactly that, but the context in the show gives the audience the idea that we're meant to find them not only funny and cute and romantic, but just as well. That this is what Kuea needs and deserves. And that is way not cool.
Kuea would have been cultivating the well behaved veneer his entire youth, building up to this drama, for it to be convincing. That mask is the work of a lifetime. Which is relatable to those of us who are LGBT. Many of us grew up hiding big parts of ourselves behind a wall of socially acceptable identity in front of people who could bring down consequences if we were someone they didn't approve of. Lian has spent his life knowing a variation of this. He's grown up knowing his real true self isn't the one that is desired or validated. So he had to find the strength to cultivate the truth of who he was on his own. In secret. Kuea slipping out to go sing reminded me of my teens. I and my fellow queer friends all slipping out through bedroom windows to meet up and go hang in the middle of the night--fake ID's and all. Just all the queer kids finally free to be queer at the local gay dance clubs. And we hid that part of ourselves from our loved ones.
Now, obviously the consequences for Kuea being found out weren't as grave as the consequences for us being caught. But it's the same emotional dynamic. His everyday life is built around the false identity he constructed to protect his real self. And just like with us, trust and benevolence is the only reason for Kuea to show his real self. All the pressure, all the manipulations and control and gaslighting and weird lies and the petty actions aren't the way to get through to Kuea that he is loved for who he is. In fact, it only sends the message that Lian sees Kuea as an object, not a person.
Now, we both know that the plot is built to make Kuea into a mouse and Lian into his keeper. Taming of the Shrew, indeed. Lian will eventually soften a little but the idea that he has the right to choose for Kuea will never be addressed. Kuea's freedom to choose will never be really his. It will always be that thing that Lian lets him have instead of the native agency he always possessed, even when Lian didn't approve of his choices. And there's an irony at play. Lian says he wants Kuea to do whatever he wants, but that only holds true so long as Kuea is doing what Lian desires. Because right now Kuea wants to keep his true self hidden and Lian is doing everything he can to prevent him.
And no, there was no reason for Lian to do any of this. We aren't only fit to be loved when we are doing what others think we should be doing. Kuea is as worthy of Lian's love when he's pretending to be meek and reserved as when he's up on stage singing his heart out. And it's not for Lian to decide which parts of himself that Kuea shares. Especially since Lian knows who Kuea really is and at any time could have just said "Hey, Kuea. I love you. Full stop. No caveats. No matter who you are."
Kuea stood before him in episode 1 and asked to be loved and Lian essentially said "Not this part of you."
Apparently in the book, Kuea's family is broke and Lian has been financially supporting the family this whole…
OMFG! How! How did the author come up with a plot twist that made Lian actually WORSE!? If they incorporate this into the show it means that Kuea's family basically has been working with Lian and letting him have control of Kuea in order to settle debt. It will mean they sold him.
Why were the cctv cameras planted in the first place?Their first kiss happened when Kuea was drunk and he didn't…
Lian is entitled to put CCTV in his house but having forced Kuea to live there he's obligated to TELL HIM he's being monitored. That he didn't remove them until Kuea was taking his shirt off doesn't do anything to make him less sleazy. Watching Kuea without his consent is sleazy even if he never disrobes in front of a camera and if Lian has CCTV set up in any "private space" of Kuea's without warning him then he really is sleazy whether he looked at the footage or not. It's not less of a violation if nudity isn't involved and it's not less of a violation if you choose not to watch some footage but are peeping him in others. But then we know Lian is sleazy anyway, the kiss in the car was enough to establish that and if not, the bet with Yi and the manipulations with Jay cement it.
And he actually stole the CCTV footage from Kuea's home after the kiss to hide what happened. It didn't have a fucking thing to do with not wanting Kuea to freak out. It had to do with him not wanting to face up to having done something wrong and also if he told Kuea he kissed him then that implies he saw the performance and knows about Kirin and then the whole gig is over for Lian who loses the foothold for all his favorite manipulations. Admitting to the kiss legitimately takes away his power to manipulate Kuea because it drags too much out into the light and that's why he didn't tell him.
Future improvements will not be framed in the context of Lian being a creep but learning from his mistakes and Ep 6 proved that. There was plenty of opportunity for him to step back from all the manipulations and instead he's rocking the more subtle ones and involving other parties that have something they want from Kuea (Jay).
You're very much correct in stating what you have said about Lian's actions. He has done all of those things,…
A relationship can be toxic whether it's your first or your 50th. Their relative experience isn't a factor. That they've been tied to each other since childhood is in and of itself unhealthy and a perfect germination bed for a deeply imbalanced, unwholesome situation where the people involved are habituated to their roles through grooming, among other things. Yes, I said grooming. Lian and Kuea have been "engaged" since well before age of consent and brought up with the idea that they're meant to be with each other. The levels of nasty grooming there, especially for Kuea who was dealing with an adult fiance at age 11...*shivers*. It's perfectly possible to do arranged marriage plots without involving a background filled with underage grooming.
No wonder Kuea needed to have a secret life where he's free.
But see, Kuea isn't a child. He's an adult. if he wants to stay out late all night and not pick up Lian's calls, that's all within his right to do so. And the fact that Kuea is in love with Lian has nothing to do with whether Lian is being toxic and controlling. Lian literally forced Kuea to move in with him against his will. He constantly manipulates and railroads Kuea into doing things. He's messed with him through manipulation just last episode with Jay as his partner. That's malicious. Whether they love each other, are hot for each other, or anything else. And no, we don't need to wait to see the whole story. There has been plenty of evidence laid down already. If Lian changes later that still doesn't erase that he's toxic as hell right now and the show has set it up that this behavior is somehow a reflection of his love within the romance, despite the fact that this whole "Taming of the Shrew" redux is going to result in Kuea giving things up, not Lian.
Lian isn't being naughty. Children are naughty. He's a fucking adult. He's entitled to make his own choices about his life, even if that means he cultivates a part of it he keeps secret from Lian. Lian is not entitled to force Kuea to reveal himself.
The show's pacing needs work. Flat out there are always scenes that just drag. The Lian and Yi scenes together…
I don't disagree with any of this. I think I used the term "taffy-stretched" to describe some scenes the other day.
I watched one of the episodes and made the mistake of doing it out in the main sitting room on the 60in. My daughter rolled by when I was watching and saw Lian up in Kuea's personal space all threatening and was like, "Hey mom, the villain isn't about to like, hurt the guy? Is he?" And I had to explain to her that despite all appearances, Lian wasn't the villain.
She just snorted and walked off saying "Riiiight. Sure."
lian and kuea's relationship trajectory makes no sense 😠lian is mad that kuea lies to him so instead of talking…
Oh, you nailed that way more succinct than I ever do! Good for you! I was so heartbroken when this plot started unfolding because I was also SO looking forward to this.
And I am starting to see something in Nuea I can like, but I just need a little bit more to make a final decision. Of the "tops" he's the best so far from what little we've seen. He's certainly more palatable.
I was so incredibly excited for this show after seeing the trailer, but now I've seen through episode 6 and every…
Very solid. I agree there is the faint glimmer of redemption in the Yi/Diao story just starting to appear.
But man, not the Lian/Kuea one. I like both Zee and New as actors, but not together. And New is still overacting somewhat. So... I like him and he has potential but he needs a different, better drama to cultivate his acting skills in.
Hahahahahaahah! Oh shit. I don't even know where to start with all that misdirection. I actually almost rolled…
Me rolling my eyes shows the level of disregard for your nonsense, not a lack of understanding. I love how people always assume if someone doesn't agree with them then they somehow must just not understand.
I have brought logic and understanding to the debate before and it never gets through. This one is right up there with the consent discussion. I can throw reason out there all day but at some point I stop caring if the horse I've lead to the water trough is actually going to drink.
As an audience member, we have all the view of Lian's actions we need in order to deem them toxic. Whether Lian's behaviors are toxic enough to call it a cycle of abuse is something that can be debated, and there are going to be valid viewpoints on that no matter where people fall, most likely. But whether the actions themselves are in fact toxic, no. That's pretty much solidly already established.
I'm droppin it today. I hate every minute when Kuea and Liam are together. That was suppose to be a romance not…
You are not alone. The only reason I am here every week is to keep pumping the alt perspective and because I need to watch the whole thing to give it the final formal review when the series is over. Otherwise I would be out the door with you.
I seriously don’t understand why people are here complaining in the comments about the story or the relationship…
Hahahahahaahah! Oh shit. I don't even know where to start with all that misdirection. I actually almost rolled my eyes right out my skull.
I get it. I do. You don't know what toxic behavior looks like and you simply can't be bothered to look past "Oh sexy ZeeNew!" in order to learn. Just take for granted that if you haven't understood anyone's explanations about toxicity before now, then we're losing hope of helping you become informed. But just because we're calling Lian's choices toxic doesn't mean we haven't thought about it or understand it fully.
It's fine that you like it. But it's definitely toxic. And the fact that Lian loves Kuea isn't in dispute. But…
First, don't kid yourself that toxicity always looks like Yi's behaviors toward Diao. That's just one kind and not even the most common. The vast majority of toxic abuse looks exactly like what Lian is subjecting Kuea to. It's more subtle, but it's not necessarily hard to spot as evidenced by the plentiful group of people on this Comments section who all recognized it. I'm going to be addressing this more in my review tomorrow so that's all I'll say on that here because it's already going to be exhausting to lay it out that once.
But as for *"Kuea lied first."*--Who lied first doesn't matter. That's entirely beside the point. It has no role in determining whether their relationship is toxic.
*"...Basically created this whole fake identity for Lian to like him."* No, Kuea didn't create that persona for Lian. He's been using that persona on Lian, but he created it to snow job his family, in order to protect his ability to live his life on his own terms (as musician, Automotive Engineer, free spirit, etc.). Because his entire family life is structured to make him into THE EXACT PERSON THAT HE IS PRETENDING TO BE. So pretending to be what they want, and therefore satisfying their expectations, gives Kuea the latitude to be who he actually is when they aren't breathing down his neck.
Kuea simply made the very understandable assumption that Lian had the same set of expectations for him that his family did, and then projected that same ideal at Lian. And since Lian's role in Kuea's life is consistently an ambassador of the same kind of autocratic control over Kuea that his parents exert, Kuea literally has no reason to believe otherwise.
Lian found out about Kuea's double life some time ago and never just sat Kuea the fuck down and kindly said "Kuea, I know about your double life and I want you to know I love you just the way you really are". Instead Lian has waged a war to gain even more control over Kuea's life in order to force him to surrender the truth of his double life. That's the cruelest, least intuitive, most manipulative and malicious way to get a person's confidence. Confidence. In this context the word means trust. Basically instead of earning Kuea's trust, Lian is working at breaking him.
They're both lying. It comes down to why they're lying. Kuea is lying to protect himself and the life he built for himself. Lian is lying and manipulating, and frankly shoving Kuea into a situation where he is forced to surrender what hasn't been earned--Kuea's trust. His true self.
As for Lian's tactics being *"tricking him into being himself"*, it's not as simple as that. You are a pro at the art of victim blaming. Really, truly a master. Lian's "tricking" is just one part of a larger mode of conduct the goal of which is to force Kuea to reveal something he wishes to keep hidden. The idea that Lian has the right to force Kuea is arrogant on a good day. Whether Lian likes it or not, only Kuea's is entitled to decide who he reveals himself to. Whether Lian likes it or not Kuea is allowed to hide who he is from Lian. Now, Lian is well within his rights to reject Kuea based on that deception but he is NOT within his rights for force Kuea to reveal anything about himself. Or to control the many parts of Kuea's life the way he does.
That force, the numerous manipulations, the control, the theft of Kuea's agency, that idea that he has a right to subdue Kuea and bring him to heel, the idea that he has the right to force Kuea to reveal himself...It's all very toxic.
*"At the end of the day, this is a drama. So if everyone just came clean in ep 2, there would be no show."* Congrats, you just made my eye twitch. Like, a LOT. Let me get this straight, your excuse for the 'not-toxic-because-Kuea-lied-first' behavior is because the show creators needed to drag out the plot past episode 2?
"There would be no show" isn't the diametric opposite of "it's gonna be messy". It's not an either/or. There were literally tons of ways to approach the plot and thecreators chose to propagate toxic behaviors in a specific way that fetishizes them. I wrote this long, detailed list of plot possibilities that wouldn't have shut things down at episode 2 and still would have accomplished the show without the toxicity being presented as cute/romantic/funny. But I think I'll just leave it at the fact that it's very possible to do so.
If Lian yelled over that little cleaver being used on eggs, he'd have shit himself over mine. (Disclaimer: This was a promotional image for my cleaver. So, not me in the picture.)
The thing is, even if they develop Lian's character away from the toxic behavior down the road, it doesn't change that right now he's a raging mess of bad, bad choices. Those don't become better or suddenly more understandable just because later he learns to act better. So there's no point waiting until the end of the show to call out his behavior, as some have argued, since even if he improves--right now, in this moment, his behavior is still toxic.
And that heart to heart he might eventually have would need to be epic in order to make up for any of this. That apology would have to be the magnum opus of apologies the veracity of which would need be ratified with an affidavit from someone who isn't a raging dick.
Also, I shouldn't forget to mention that I loved that you addressed context. Because it's been a problem the whole series. The toxic behaviors are exactly that, but the context in the show gives the audience the idea that we're meant to find them not only funny and cute and romantic, but just as well. That this is what Kuea needs and deserves. And that is way not cool.
Kuea would have been cultivating the well behaved veneer his entire youth, building up to this drama, for it to be convincing. That mask is the work of a lifetime. Which is relatable to those of us who are LGBT. Many of us grew up hiding big parts of ourselves behind a wall of socially acceptable identity in front of people who could bring down consequences if we were someone they didn't approve of. Lian has spent his life knowing a variation of this. He's grown up knowing his real true self isn't the one that is desired or validated. So he had to find the strength to cultivate the truth of who he was on his own. In secret. Kuea slipping out to go sing reminded me of my teens. I and my fellow queer friends all slipping out through bedroom windows to meet up and go hang in the middle of the night--fake ID's and all. Just all the queer kids finally free to be queer at the local gay dance clubs. And we hid that part of ourselves from our loved ones.
Now, obviously the consequences for Kuea being found out weren't as grave as the consequences for us being caught. But it's the same emotional dynamic. His everyday life is built around the false identity he constructed to protect his real self. And just like with us, trust and benevolence is the only reason for Kuea to show his real self. All the pressure, all the manipulations and control and gaslighting and weird lies and the petty actions aren't the way to get through to Kuea that he is loved for who he is. In fact, it only sends the message that Lian sees Kuea as an object, not a person.
Now, we both know that the plot is built to make Kuea into a mouse and Lian into his keeper. Taming of the Shrew, indeed. Lian will eventually soften a little but the idea that he has the right to choose for Kuea will never be addressed. Kuea's freedom to choose will never be really his. It will always be that thing that Lian lets him have instead of the native agency he always possessed, even when Lian didn't approve of his choices. And there's an irony at play. Lian says he wants Kuea to do whatever he wants, but that only holds true so long as Kuea is doing what Lian desires. Because right now Kuea wants to keep his true self hidden and Lian is doing everything he can to prevent him.
And no, there was no reason for Lian to do any of this. We aren't only fit to be loved when we are doing what others think we should be doing. Kuea is as worthy of Lian's love when he's pretending to be meek and reserved as when he's up on stage singing his heart out. And it's not for Lian to decide which parts of himself that Kuea shares. Especially since Lian knows who Kuea really is and at any time could have just said "Hey, Kuea. I love you. Full stop. No caveats. No matter who you are."
Kuea stood before him in episode 1 and asked to be loved and Lian essentially said "Not this part of you."
Lian can go fuck himself.
And he actually stole the CCTV footage from Kuea's home after the kiss to hide what happened. It didn't have a fucking thing to do with not wanting Kuea to freak out. It had to do with him not wanting to face up to having done something wrong and also if he told Kuea he kissed him then that implies he saw the performance and knows about Kirin and then the whole gig is over for Lian who loses the foothold for all his favorite manipulations. Admitting to the kiss legitimately takes away his power to manipulate Kuea because it drags too much out into the light and that's why he didn't tell him.
Future improvements will not be framed in the context of Lian being a creep but learning from his mistakes and Ep 6 proved that. There was plenty of opportunity for him to step back from all the manipulations and instead he's rocking the more subtle ones and involving other parties that have something they want from Kuea (Jay).
No wonder Kuea needed to have a secret life where he's free.
But see, Kuea isn't a child. He's an adult. if he wants to stay out late all night and not pick up Lian's calls, that's all within his right to do so. And the fact that Kuea is in love with Lian has nothing to do with whether Lian is being toxic and controlling. Lian literally forced Kuea to move in with him against his will. He constantly manipulates and railroads Kuea into doing things. He's messed with him through manipulation just last episode with Jay as his partner. That's malicious. Whether they love each other, are hot for each other, or anything else. And no, we don't need to wait to see the whole story. There has been plenty of evidence laid down already. If Lian changes later that still doesn't erase that he's toxic as hell right now and the show has set it up that this behavior is somehow a reflection of his love within the romance, despite the fact that this whole "Taming of the Shrew" redux is going to result in Kuea giving things up, not Lian.
Lian isn't being naughty. Children are naughty. He's a fucking adult. He's entitled to make his own choices about his life, even if that means he cultivates a part of it he keeps secret from Lian. Lian is not entitled to force Kuea to reveal himself.
I watched one of the episodes and made the mistake of doing it out in the main sitting room on the 60in. My daughter rolled by when I was watching and saw Lian up in Kuea's personal space all threatening and was like, "Hey mom, the villain isn't about to like, hurt the guy? Is he?" And I had to explain to her that despite all appearances, Lian wasn't the villain.
She just snorted and walked off saying "Riiiight. Sure."
And I am starting to see something in Nuea I can like, but I just need a little bit more to make a final decision. Of the "tops" he's the best so far from what little we've seen. He's certainly more palatable.
But man, not the Lian/Kuea one. I like both Zee and New as actors, but not together. And New is still overacting somewhat. So... I like him and he has potential but he needs a different, better drama to cultivate his acting skills in.
The writing is abysmal.
I have brought logic and understanding to the debate before and it never gets through. This one is right up there with the consent discussion. I can throw reason out there all day but at some point I stop caring if the horse I've lead to the water trough is actually going to drink.
As an audience member, we have all the view of Lian's actions we need in order to deem them toxic. Whether Lian's behaviors are toxic enough to call it a cycle of abuse is something that can be debated, and there are going to be valid viewpoints on that no matter where people fall, most likely. But whether the actions themselves are in fact toxic, no. That's pretty much solidly already established.
I get it. I do. You don't know what toxic behavior looks like and you simply can't be bothered to look past "Oh sexy ZeeNew!" in order to learn. Just take for granted that if you haven't understood anyone's explanations about toxicity before now, then we're losing hope of helping you become informed. But just because we're calling Lian's choices toxic doesn't mean we haven't thought about it or understand it fully.
But as for *"Kuea lied first."*--Who lied first doesn't matter. That's entirely beside the point. It has no role in determining whether their relationship is toxic.
*"...Basically created this whole fake identity for Lian to like him."* No, Kuea didn't create that persona for Lian. He's been using that persona on Lian, but he created it to snow job his family, in order to protect his ability to live his life on his own terms (as musician, Automotive Engineer, free spirit, etc.). Because his entire family life is structured to make him into THE EXACT PERSON THAT HE IS PRETENDING TO BE. So pretending to be what they want, and therefore satisfying their expectations, gives Kuea the latitude to be who he actually is when they aren't breathing down his neck.
Kuea simply made the very understandable assumption that Lian had the same set of expectations for him that his family did, and then projected that same ideal at Lian. And since Lian's role in Kuea's life is consistently an ambassador of the same kind of autocratic control over Kuea that his parents exert, Kuea literally has no reason to believe otherwise.
Lian found out about Kuea's double life some time ago and never just sat Kuea the fuck down and kindly said "Kuea, I know about your double life and I want you to know I love you just the way you really are". Instead Lian has waged a war to gain even more control over Kuea's life in order to force him to surrender the truth of his double life. That's the cruelest, least intuitive, most manipulative and malicious way to get a person's confidence. Confidence. In this context the word means trust. Basically instead of earning Kuea's trust, Lian is working at breaking him.
They're both lying. It comes down to why they're lying. Kuea is lying to protect himself and the life he built for himself. Lian is lying and manipulating, and frankly shoving Kuea into a situation where he is forced to surrender what hasn't been earned--Kuea's trust. His true self.
As for Lian's tactics being *"tricking him into being himself"*, it's not as simple as that. You are a pro at the art of victim blaming. Really, truly a master. Lian's "tricking" is just one part of a larger mode of conduct the goal of which is to force Kuea to reveal something he wishes to keep hidden. The idea that Lian has the right to force Kuea is arrogant on a good day. Whether Lian likes it or not, only Kuea's is entitled to decide who he reveals himself to. Whether Lian likes it or not Kuea is allowed to hide who he is from Lian. Now, Lian is well within his rights to reject Kuea based on that deception but he is NOT within his rights for force Kuea to reveal anything about himself. Or to control the many parts of Kuea's life the way he does.
That force, the numerous manipulations, the control, the theft of Kuea's agency, that idea that he has a right to subdue Kuea and bring him to heel, the idea that he has the right to force Kuea to reveal himself...It's all very toxic.
*"At the end of the day, this is a drama. So if everyone just came clean in ep 2, there would be no show."* Congrats, you just made my eye twitch. Like, a LOT. Let me get this straight, your excuse for the 'not-toxic-because-Kuea-lied-first' behavior is because the show creators needed to drag out the plot past episode 2?
"There would be no show" isn't the diametric opposite of "it's gonna be messy". It's not an either/or. There were literally tons of ways to approach the plot and thecreators chose to propagate toxic behaviors in a specific way that fetishizes them. I wrote this long, detailed list of plot possibilities that wouldn't have shut things down at episode 2 and still would have accomplished the show without the toxicity being presented as cute/romantic/funny. But I think I'll just leave it at the fact that it's very possible to do so.
If Lian yelled over that little cleaver being used on eggs, he'd have shit himself over mine. (Disclaimer: This was a promotional image for my cleaver. So, not me in the picture.)