etoks21

"Pitch a tent?" lol

Are you suggesting that crime and public urination are rampant to the same extent in every country, from Germany to France to the US, it's all the same?

Where in the West do you live?

Meh...
(I acknowledge that everything below comes from my perspective as an individual and a Westerner.
But since that's who and what I am, that's the only place from which I see anything.)

The last 50 minutes were a slog.
This would have benefited massively from an edit down to at least 2:30 and preferably 2:00.
The acting, on and off the stage, is magnificent.
The Kabuki theatre scenes are breathtaking, especially the costumes, sets, and lighting.

The story offstage is full of holes and gaps.

It pissed me off that up to the very end, the screenplay presented Kikuho as not just being accused of ruthless ambition that destroyed families, individuals, and his own child, but being GUILTY of such, even though Hanjiro II is the one who declared Kikuho his heir over his own son and insisted on it being no other way, even though that declaration was in recognition of Kiluho's innate talent and hard work, even though Shunsuke ran off with Kikuho's GF to whom he had proposed and disappeared for ten years, even though said GF refused Kikuho's proposal and insisted he focus on his art, even though the woman who became his mistress and mother of his daughter WANTED that very life for herself and encouraged Kikuho to place his art above all else, but yeah...let's pretend Kokuho is the bad guy.

Why did Shunsuke suddenly reappear after ten years out of touch and his father's death?
Was it because he knew that with his father out of the way, he could claim the legacy his father DID NOT THINK HE DESERVED OR HAD EARNED, and snatch everything, including his home, away from Kikuho? Why, yes, yes, it was.
And yet, apparently, all of Japan saw this as just dandy and admirable.
I'm glad Kikuho punched Shunsuke out when he condescendingly, from the steps of the only home Kikuho had ever known and from which he had just ejected him, suggested he would put in a good word for him so they could work together.
Dude...you asshole.

It's not those events that piss me off, that's just good drama, it's that the film's view seemed to be that Shunsuke, the lesser talented one, the one who cowardly ran away with Kikuho's GF, the one whose father saw him as what he was, a less dedicated, less gifted actor than Kikuho, was the victim and in the right through all of this.

Huge story gap: After the old Kibuke Queen called Kikuho to his deathbed and granted him absolution or something, why were Kikuho and Shunsuke suddenly reunited as a stage duo and besties? Who knows? We weren't told.

It is exceedingly rare that healthy adults whose diabetes is managed and controlled lose limbs to amputation.
Was Shunsuke's diabetes poorly treated/managed for some reason?
Who knows?
No one told us.
He suddenly had diabetes and they chopped his leg off. For some reason Shunsuke didn't think it worthwhile to so much as get a second opinion. He seemed downright eager to lose a leg.

It gets worse.
Declining and missing a leg, Shunsuke declares his comeback in a huge, traditional Kabuki role.
Never mind the spot that puts his fellow actor(s) in; that's what he wants, so that's where we go.
Then, in an over-the-top bit of camp and melodrama, Shunsuke ruins the show and damn near dies on stage. As he lays, in extreme danger of death, in Kikuho's arms behind the curtain, Kikuho insists he GET UP, OR YOU'LL BE REPLACED.
Dude...he's dying.
I don't care...he needs to get up.
Where's that ambulance?
What ambulance?
Oh well.

It gets worse.
Kikuho's illegit daughter, born of the woman who got what she wanted as Kikuho's mistress, pops up melodramatically out of nowhere as the photographer at his official something-or-other, and lays a guilt trip on him before doing a 180 and rapturously gushing that he did it, he is now the Kabuki GOAT of all time!

It's fascinating that "onnagata" are high-class, expensively costumed, coiffed, and made-up drag queens, and became a thing only after an emperor or such banned women from the stage in the 17th century, yet this survives as a hallowed art to this day.
I'm not saying it's NOT an art, but it's curious that in macho/male-dominated/homophobic Japan, the stylized feminization of men on stage not only slips under the culture's misogynistic radar, but is glorified and honored to such a degree.
Where are the women playing male kabuki roles?

Finally, the ancient Japanese fetishization of death and glorification of suicide, which ended only after the disaster of World War 2, is fascinating/disturbing.
Damn near every kabuki show they did featured someone killing themselves as a means of saving face, displaying love, or honoring someone else.

With the plot tightened up, holes filled, nonsense fixed, and some repetitious elements, both onstage and off, cut down to no more than two-and-a-half hours, preferably two hours even, this might have been a 9 or 9.5/10 for me.

As it is, though, it's a 7/10.

Exactly.
The story is trying to explain why Itsuki is the way he is, but it feels like it's trying to excuse his behavior, which are two different things.
It's Itsuki who chose to share exactly none of this with Yuma, and instead launched into a passive-aggressive period of taking his anger at the world out on his former partner.

I get that there is almost always a lot of background to why people behave the way they do, but it is our reactions to the shit that happens to us that define us, and Itsuki chose to react in multiple, self-destructive ways and direct his free-floating resentments at Yuma.

Episode 5:
Give me a fucking break.

I had to stop halfway through this episode, as the pity party for poor, misunderstood, victimized, and sainted Itsuki was making me nauseous and I feared I might puke on my keyboard, thus fucking up my computer.

I'll go back later and finish, but half of this is all I can take right now.

Oh look! Poor Itsuki works at soup kitchens and plays with orphaned children!
Oh look! Poor Itsuki beat up a customer (or boss, not sure) because he overheard a condescending conversation and, instead of confronting the situation with his brain and words, he chose to go all macho and assault the dude with his fists!
Oh look! Poor Itsuki is so noble that he stuck to nearby Internet dumps so he could honor his soup kitchen obligations!
Oh look! It was only because of all the above that Itsuki played video games all day, sponged off of Yuma and the camera guy, and fucked a little queen on Yuma's bed!
That explains it all!
Oh look! Poor, dear Itsuki discovered a cure for cancer and achieved world peace!
Oh look! It is only the little camera guy, who has known Saint Itsuki for a few weeks, who knows his true heart, true motivations, and that he cooks really great fried something or other!

This is facile and condescending beyond measure.
So insulting to the audience.

Of course, some people are way too obsessed, and would be so no matter what production companies did.
AND, many production companies, particularly Thai production companies, require fan service in their actor contracts.
AND, most fans know it's fan service and are NOT obsessed beyond all reason. It's a fun, silly, teasing aspect of Thai BL culture that is mostly harmless.

Three things can be true at once.

Some people are killed in car crashes every year, and yet we still drive cars.
Some BL fans are obsessed stalkers. That doesn't mean all fan service is evil and should be banned. I know you didn't say that, but it's the natural extension of that perspective.

I took the Shiho remark below to be tongue-in-cheek, as in it might as well be Shiho's story because it takes so much time away from the gay story line. I don't think she's been given MORE screen time than the couple, but maybe I'm wrong.

We've also seen plenty of scenes of the couple when she's not around. How could it be her story?

In what way does the project she took over come across as fetishized?
I haven't gotten even a hint of that being the case.

The word "fetishized" is tossed around a lot on MDL.

I totally get what you're saying, and of course, there are plenty of people who do that.
But, if that message is a primary element of what this screenplay is trying to convey, I don't think it's doing a good job.

The spokesperson for this perspective is the least credible and most self-obsessed, belligerent, arrogant succubus in the story.
And, the only direct attempt to put the message you describe into words came during a rant from the succubus immediately after he enacted a calculated scene of betrayal and humiliation of the man he's been succubus-sing off of.


I went back and listened/watched the succubus's self-righteous rant a second time. It confirmed what my initial reaction was, that while it certainly applies to a segment of the BL-watching audience, it also applies to a lot of other consumers of many other types of art.

Also, the succubus directed his rant at the documentary director, who does not strike me as a fetishist, but quite the opposite. She wants to produce a documentary that highlights the humanity of gay couples beneath the misconceptions and stereotypes so many people have about them.

Meanwhile, what is the succubus doing but acting out the worst stereotypes about gay men: Sex-obsessed, promiscuous, disloyal, amoral, and shallow? Again, the director of this BL could not have picked a worse spokesperson if the intention is to convey what you suggest.

I suspect that Yuma and the doc director are going to collaborate and turn the piece into one that comes clean on Yuma's pathetic ruse, but weaves the intention behind it into a narrative highlighting how difficult it is for gay people/couples to live fulfilled lives in Japan.

Which leads me to a final point: It can successfully be argued that all societies are largely built on often obvious, "fake" institutions and behaviors. Half of marriages end in divorce, and how many of the remainder experience one or both partners cheating? How many of the remaining marriages are less than "happy?" People pretend in every area of life; why should gay people be held to a standard of authenticity nobody else meets?

Yeah, Itsuki is a douche bag who dares to lecture others about truth and honor, when he knows little of the former and none of the latter.

On the other hand, I'm sure you know many BL production houses deliberately push their actors to provide fanservice meant to foment the hysterical online shipping of which you speak.

The word "fetishization" gets tossed around a lot on MDL in ways that do not fit its meaning.

I'm not saying you are necessarily doing this, but fetishization does not equal "showing an interest in."

Please explain what you mean by "fetishization" in the context of this plot?
Thanks.

So, do you know Japanese?
If so, can you provide, in a nutshell, the context you're talking about, please?

If you don't know Japanese, how do you know there is context missing?

:D
lol

What topic?

" I ain reading allat"

Unsurprising. Reading leads to learning, and you wouldn't want that now, would you?

All you've got is insults and childish insinuations.
But...no answers.

Go play in traffic.

(I hope you don't find this "100-page-essay" too intimidating to get through.)

Oh, look who's back.
You seem "fixated."

Unsurprisingly, you answered none of my questions.
Unsurprisingly, you find a comment containing five brief paragraphs equal to a "100-page essay," and difficult to make it through.
Unsurprisingly, you think that 13 and 18 are necessarily the same because, gasp!, they both contain the word "teen."
Unsurprisingly, you think all teens are as "young and naive" as you are.
Unsurprisingly, you bring up random shit, such as "child-adult marriages," that I did not address nor mention.
Unsurprisingly, you equate an age-gap romance with "slavery and torture."

"But let's be honest, 18 year olds are practically kids too... They dont suddenly get any more mature from a 16-17 year old."
So, when does this magical moment occur at which an 18-year-old becomes more mature than a 17-year-old?
I asked that question above, but you ignored it.
Some 17-year-olds are more mature than some 18-year-olds. How does that reality fit into your tiny worldview?

And since, by your own admission, you are a teenager, and thus "naive" and immature, who do you think you are to address these issues? You're just a dumb kid, remember?

Thankfully, a lot of teenagers aren't as naive and brainwashed as you.

Yikes.

lol
That's some great argument you've got for your position there, kei.
It's so telling that you didn't answer a single question I asked.
Because you can't.

Regarding this discussion, there is nothing wrong with me, but I know what is wrong with you: You've latched onto a trendy, Puritanical mindset that proclaims age-gap relationships as impermissible, but when challenged, you can't support your position.

Don't feel bad.
There's a lot of that on MDL.

I'm one hundred percent serious, child.

"...fresh 18-year-old" lol
I think you're the perv here.

You answered none of the questions in my comment above.
You answered none of them because you can't.
You can't rationally/calmly explain your position, so you rely on stupid fallback statements like "And you know damn well how different a teenager and a 30 year old think and act, don't be dense."

I dont' know any such thing, damn well or otherwise.
Every single person is different, and it's not up to you or anyone else to tell legal adults they can or cannot date.
Age gap relationships have been a fact of life since humanity began to exist. I doubt your shrieking your moral outrage will change that.

There are 18-year-olds who are far more sensible and mature than many 30-year-olds.
Is it OK for a 29-year-old to date an 18-year-old?
28?
27?
24?
21?
At what magic age does it become OK for someone to date an 18-year-old?
Do they have to be no more than six months older, six weeks, six days older?
What's the cut-off?
Is it OK for an 18-year-old to date a 17-year-old?
A 16-year-old?
Since the 18-year-old is an adult but also a "teenager!" (you shrieked), is that OK.
Did the 18-year-old magically gain all wisdom at midnight on their birthday, or what?

If you're unwilling to answer my questions, don't bother replying.

Preach it, sister! :D

I download gifs from the web just as I would a still photo, place it in a folder, then use MDL settings in my profile to place the pic just as if it were any jpg or whatever.
Hope that helps.

Dropping during episode 1.

This is the type of thing I might enjoy as a 2-hour movie.
As a dragged-out, seven-hour series, not so much.