logiquement

My questions and assertions simply come from the fact that I'm not an expert in anything related to Japan at that time, given that I'm not japanse nor a japanese enthusiast. I'm clearly missing some infos on background architectures and societal status since I don't watch Japanese historical drama and it's not my culture, that's it :)
I usually learn more about other cultures through media consumption, I'm not an expert on korean past periods but it did took me some period kdramas to understand basic things about how things work in a palace.
I'm yet into my Japanese phase, still on Turkiye right now.

I understand your point though.

I'd rather be confused and not be spoiled ahead of watching some scenes. I don't mind talking about it once I have seen the episode.

Can't Ishido kill them all and pretend they fled in the night ? Or were taken by the ninjas and still act like he doesn't what happend ? Now that she is dead, couldn't it be seen as a threat to anyone who opposes him and therefore still have the other regents shaking if they try to oppose him. Sure he is a peasant but he is a peasant with power, and army and who has people in fear. Maybe Mariko's speech reminded people of his origins but are they brave enough ?
Honestly when it comes to plot there are so may ways of having it to after something happend, it'll be whatever the writers decide (or the book decided if they follow the book)

They might be use as a witnesses to tell the other noble families that she died of her own volition but I wonder if it would matter, either way she is dead because of him and the nobles won't let that pass. If he understands that and get petty like he did with is kidnapping orders, he can just kill them all regardless of their testimonies. I don't think she thought that much ahead, as said by DanaL, she might have just decided to die on her own just because she is a samurai and refused to be taken alive ?

So I assume the other hostages could escape then ? only she died right ?
because except to indeed die without being taken alive as a samurai, her death didn't save them so far.

Go troll somewhere else and stop liking your own comments, it's embarassing.

Not sure she thought that far when it comes to having them as witnesses but that could be one way to use her death to protect them. I can get behind her chosing to die here as oppose to being taken but it would have been nice of her to say it because saying "I oppose this" was very confusing on my end. But would Ishido care that she killed herself? I wonder, since he was already planning to kill them. Maybe he'll get a moment of lucidity in is pettiness and actually think. Even then, wouldn't it be more beneficial for Toranaga that she was killed ? Couldn't the witnesses lie in order to have Mariko be a martyr and put Ishido in a tighter spot with the noble families ? I assume it wouldn't matter, her dying, no matter how, is enough to fuck Ishido. I see that now.
I did like the fact that she did not bother to call herself with her husband's name in the end.
BTW, I forgot to answer your previous comment last week to tell you that I couldn't read it, I don't want book spoilers ahead of what I have already watched 😞

Well that's unlucky lol, the context was the same ? They came for her at night and she tried to hide and they blew her off accidenttaly ?

Honestly the shift from "I want to die to protest my father's death and join him" to "I'll live since my father married me off to protect me and valued my life" to "I'll die, but for my lord this time, out of futy" in just a couple of nights really gave me a headache. All she want's to do is die, tf is wrong with you ?

How accidental was her death ?

I got that part, it's the dying in front of the door that I found stupid. They came for her anyway, it's not like she sacrificed herself.

It's still an important point of semantics, from a religious POV, she did not sin, no matter that it's actually bullshit.

they really said no plot armour but in a dumb kind of way, I'm losing my mind lmaoo.

Mariko was always about killing herself. The girl doesn't even care that her father did what he did to protect her life, she still wants to throw it away, but now for her lord, out of duty, whatever.
Lucky us, she didn't have to die.
Except no, I was already given permission to die, so I'll die, except I'll do it in a dumb way ??
I wouldn't have minded her dying to further the plot or Toranaga's plan (like the initial seppuku), the gamble was excellent, she want's to die, he needs a reason to put Ishido in a tight spot, win-win.
But wtf was that ? She didn't protect shit, if the little house doesn't get burned down, they could have just all move to the back. Now what ? How does that save them ?

edit: made it more clear.

That's why I never watch kdramas until they are done, you see à 8.9 for weeks and then à 7 out of nowhere loool

I mean, what's with ratings before the end of a show anyway ?
Same here, not fan of the love triangle or miscommunication trope.

Not fan of the time traveling law of this one. You either have an alternative reality or it's the same but in this case things in the presents don't change one thing at a time.

FL going from one time to another is going to create a lot of communication problems, and I HATE that trope. I also hate love triangles and guess what we have ? ......
I feel like this is going to be a very cliché kdrama and I didn't sign up for that, had I known I wouldn't have started it.
I assume since the time on the watch change, she can go back but not as many time as she wants ?
Disappointing episode for me, I really enjoyed the first two episodes so I looked forward to it and now I'm only excited for Shogun tomorrow.

Did he recognize her when they met on the bridge in the present ?

What I meant by fight is "fight back", sorry it wasn't clear, by any mean possible. Maybe he can actually fight with his army at Oasaka or at least have Ishido surrender if he can get his brother on his side (and have more men than Ishido) but that seems unlikely. Some people assumed his brother and him were actually working together and I thought it could be a possibility, but seeing him in that last episode, I don't think he's that advanced in his plan.I think he can get the heir's mother on his side because now that the wife of the previous chef (forgot his title) is dead, it seems like she's at Ishido's mercy for some reason? Like, bowing to him after the wife died ? Him proposing to her was more a threat than anything, I don't think she liked bowing to him at the end of the episode. She'll need to reconsider Toranaga's death to protect her son and herself, she doesn't trust Ishido and Toranaga is the only one who can protect her son.

"If this series had the intention of revealing that yes, Toranaga is really a big master blaster manipulator and strategist, to me it failed. The only reason why he isn't dead yet is, besides the usual "plot armor", by this very script, is luck. He can be praised for sensing and using his opportunities, but too much is happening because he was lucky. He is getting too much from doing too little."

100% agreed except I don't think he is being depicted as a "master blaster manipulator and strategist", I think it's what people think he is or describe him as (irl and in the show). But I don't think the show paints him that way. We haven't seen much strategies from him so it's a mix of smart moves, loyalty from his people, and luck. As long as you don't watch this expecting him to be Tyrion Lannister smart, it's fine.
The fact that he aknowledges that the two people's death was a stroke of luck to gain him time shows that he needed the time and so his plan is not well in place. Otherwise he could just march to Osaka immediately.

I feel like they wasted a lot on this episode, nobody in 2024 still believe the "I give up" narrative, so we've been waiting for Toranaga's admission of fight for two episodes now which is way too long imo.
Of course he's going to fight, of course it's all a trick. Now his most loyal friend offed himself to make his fake surrender believable when he's the one who talked about "he's going to fight" in the beginning of the episode. Toranaga knows that Yabushige would betray him, that's why he named him to Mariko in the end, so it wasn't to scare away just any traitors but the one guy who he knew would blab away to Ishido if he knew antyhing about a plan to fight. I feel like losing Hiromatsu just to scare Yabushige away (who is not even that loyal to beginning with) was a great loss.

I don't think that Toranaga was being a mastermind manipulator here, he doesn't just have people do things, from my understanding he doesn't trust people enough to count on them like that (the fact that nobody knew he was sneaking away from Osaka for exemple), but he does somehow rely on their loyalty or disloyalty. The talk about loyalty in this episode, and even before show that despite not trusting anyone, Toranaga does count on people's loyalty or disloyalty to him to plan his every move. He reads people, learns about them and then just knows what they will do and plan accordingly. He knew the Anjin wouldn't just sit back and he knew the man he would go to in that case was Yabushige, whom he knew would betray him. So he tried to convince people that he was done to set the whole thing in motion but it wasn't enough, and Hiromatsu got the hint in the end and decided that his death should serve his lord enough to have people convinced (when again, he's the one who talked about "he'll fight" lol).

The fact that Toranaga knew Hiromatsu did what he did out of duty indicates that Hiromatsu knew about his plan (idk if it's because they talked or because of his last words to his son). But I don't think Toranaga asked it of him or even expected him to do it like some assume. He might have even forbidden the whole thing (if they really talked), but Hiromatsu decided to do it anyway. The look and tears in his eyes during their last conversation...it doesn't look like he wanted/awaited for this to happen. I felt like he was trying to tell him "don't do it, fight with me in Osaka" and Hiromatsu was just like "nah I'm good, my son will to that for me". What was he suppose to do to stop his death ? Admit he'll fight? He couldn't. And it did serve his plan in the end so...

I don't think his death was orchestrated by Toranaga, imo He's not the mastermind some people assume him to be, he is smart of course but he's not your "everyething will go my way just because" kind of character. Those kind of characters just they're not well written character, it's easy plot, it's boring.
I think that the whole loyalty/disloyalty thing can be seen as a plot armour/luck because it can serve him a lot, as long as you accept that he's smart enough to read people.
Or maybe I just don't understand Toranaga's character very well, but from what they showed us about him, he doesn't strike me as someone whose success came from him controling everything that happens around him.

The fact that he mentionned his son and Hiromatsu buying him time show that he didn't have everything in place. Hiromatsu's loyalty is what allows him to move forward with his plan (which I assume is to fight in Osaka when Ishido and the others think he's surrendering). Idk, I felt like he has a plan but it's still very fragile, mainly because he can't control everything. There are things he needs to happen and try to set them in motion but he clearly can't do it all by himself.

It's funny because I noticed it too but though I thought it would, it actually doesn't bother me at all. The thing with focusing on a lot of side characters is that it must be well done, and a lof of productions don't do that very well. The characters are bland, not charismatic, or their story too boring and not deep. But we have many major key characters in this show, and it's hinted that they all have their importance to the story so I actually don't mind not seeing much of John.
Toranaga will definetly use John (if he hasn't already, but off screen) so I'm sure we'll be seeing more of him in the last two episodes.

Thanks for the added history details! In any case, it seems that the priests or at least some of them, do speak english, since translations were made.