psychophant

what are you proposing will remain the same? and how exactly is what happened today different than what has happened and can happen in other countries?

I get your passion but you would only do harm onto the artists and workers than the people who are responsible. boycotts won't do anything unless there are legal and legislative changes.

and it seems like my criticisms went over your head. anyone can provide ad hoc, deus ex machina explanations. but the point of good fiction, ESPECIALLY FOR MYSTERIES, is whether the information presented in the show is CONVINCING enough. my criticism is that they weren't. it will be like if the mystery movie concludes: the butler did it! yet, it gives unclear explanations filled with holes or contradictory explanations.

"-mafia could have tossed everyone's phone
based on previous attempts out get out of the game we can reasonably assume this would have counted as breaking a rule"
ah, yes, let's just add rules ad hoc... we know that mafia could steal civilian's phone. we know civilian's can steal other people's phones. we also know they can damage the phones and prevent others from voting through their phones. why aren't these considered breaking the rule? why arbitrarily state that tossing the phones out of bounds would break the rules? everyone assumed special roles could only use their abilities at night, mafia can only kill one person at night, and mafia can't injure other players at night. yet, all those rules went down the drain by the end of the show... consistency does not apply here.

"-they could have injured or killed everyone at night at any point.
they would have all had to agree. that wouldn't' have happened with jung won in the mix."
lol. first, let me write an aside: I wrote this very broadly because I didn't think anyone would be so reckless to try and defend this ridiculous plot hole.
if we really think about it, we learn mafia nights don't simply end after they kill someone; they just have to kill someone by 6 am meaning each night they have 6 hours to meet and roam around after they kill someone. and we've already had 6 nights at this point. you're telling me mafia didn't experiment or try to learn the boundaries of the rules until night 5 (which isn't even shown btw)? all they did was kill someone and then go back to their position and do nothing for 6 hours every night? BUT THEN! all of a sudden, they realize they can kill more than one person and injure people? just as it is, this is god awful writing.
now, to directly answer your statement. okay, so why did they agree to injure 1 person on night 5? and upon learning this privilege, why didn't they try to injure more people (and not just injure but debilitate everyone, which will grant them an easy victory)? if jung won disagreed, then mafia will know jung won is intentionally sabotaging the team, and this can even showcase a lot more interesting scenarios than what was shown in the show.

"-da beom, who was very determined to kill yoon seo and jun hee, just stops trying.
he never got a chance after realizing jung won had turned on him"
... he literally had yoon seo at knife point to be his "hostage." my point is there was no need for any of that. his goal was to kill as many people as possible. then, just kill her and move on. just because jung won turned on him doesn't mean he starts sparing people; it just means adding one more enemy to your list of enemies.

"-we still don't know how or why yeon woo got stabbed, how mafia planted evidence for mina's shoe, or how they knew jun hee's plan to entrap them.
you need this spelled out? da beom stabbed yeon woo. they dragged her shoe through the spray."
lol, YES I WANT THIS SPELLED OUT. this is just like the "butler did it" explanation. I obviously want to know how they found out, how they planned this together, and determine whether it is a plausible scenario. otherwise, I should just create my own story and not watch this.

"-we still don't know jun hee's backstory and why he got traumatized by pools or who had drowned in his brief flashback
it's irrelevant. we got as much as we needed"
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. so the drama spent more time showcasing how jun hee is afraid of the water than the actual scene for where it was relevant, just to show despite his unexplained trauma, he overcame his fears and rescued yoon seo who got dragged in the water by a ghost?????? and by the way, the drowning incident is completely irrelevant because the show forgets about the ghost in the second half.
it's clear, in my eyes, that the writer had planned to incorporate his backstory but had forgotten to wrap up it up. if you're satisfied with such cursory writing, then of course you'd be satisfied by anything.

"-essentially our ML and FL, whom the drama went at extreme lengths at protecting, both lack depth and a backstory... in other words, there is no reason for why these two should be or is our protagonists except that they look better than their peers?
they're the protagonists because they're most innocent. hope that helps."
okay, so this is just another form of black-and-white explanation (btw, my latter sentence about their looks was just sarcasm... to criticize the them vs. us separation): the entire class was evil, but just these two were the innocent. therefore, they were our protagonists.
THIS DOESN'T MAKE THE EXPLANATION ANY BETTER. if you're going to have a group of 30 kids, yet you can squarely divide them into 2 groups, then that's not good writing and it suggests a lack of complexity. furthermore, my main criticism is THE USELESS SIDE CHARACTERS GOT BETTER BACKSTORIES THAN THE PROTAGONISTS.

"-jung won apparently came up with a plan for doctor's (and bullies') death. are we to believe she calculated that doc would follow the two bullies, get caught, and killed once she threw the can..? how does that make sense at all?
yes, [jung won] came up with the plans. because she's a computer who has run this scenario dozens of times already."
this is not stated by the drama. don't make up information. we don't know if jung won retains her memories after each game. the mother only states that jung won had won all the games in the previous iterations. also, if you agree with this, then my later criticism that the "the parents are punishing their program version of their daughter" is even worse, because unlike the other students, she'll remember all the suffering and pains of the students. it would be ridiculous for the parents, who somewhat THINKS of jung won as se eun, are putting her to do all these heinous deeds even if jung won isn't actually se eun.
additionally, if jung won possessed all her previous knowledge + has essentially AI god-like calculations, then she could have won this game in a much easier fashion. there is no point to showcase any of her struggles.

and then all your comments there after
you're literally just explaining what the show says and arguing that it's good writing for the explanation of everything to be: the parents are evil and they're blaming everyone including jun hee and yeon seo...
okay? my point is that THIS IS UNCONVINCING.
then, you claim that the deep fake bullying comment is "gross and unrelated."
it's totally related. my claim is the story itself is not convincing for the entire class to think the subject is so taboo and be traumatized by it BECAUSE it wasn't a HORRIBLE crime; it was just a really messed up prank. the drama treated this as if she got harassed and physically bullied for her entire school days collaborated by the entire class thus it was deserving of collective guilt and shame - something like you'd see in The Glory, Han Gong Ju, or Hope.
but, nope, it's literally just stupid digital prank and some assholes made fun of her about it; that's it. it may affect the people DIRECTLY involved, such as somi and da beom, but there were others who were just part of the group chat or learned about the prank from the friends. if someone commits suicide from a prank and you laughed at the prank, then would you feel so traumatized that it becomes something you can't directly speak of? NO, you may feel ashamed for laughing and not being considerate, but you'd most likely just blame the people involved.

so, again, most of my criticisms is stating that the writing is unconvincing if you think about it a little further. I am NOT saying the show does not offer any explanation nor that I don't know what the show's stance for most of these issues. in other words, just by regurgitating what the drama shows doesn't fix my concern. my concern has always been on its simplistic and illogical explanations.

this director is a hit or miss. hope it's a hit this time.

"She will be the only one who will remember the pain, as Se Eun's mother wanted."
maybe, but that would be unusually cruel to Jae in and I don't think Jae in remembering was intentional. it was probably a system error or supernatural help from Se eun's ghost. otherwise, the parents, just out of spite, are risking all the kids finding out and figuring out a way to bypass the system altogether. or, if the other kids don't believe her, then she'd suffer the same fate as Se eun even though she's the few handful of kids that actually cared for her (even the parents know this) and was her friend.

""I think that's what She Eun's mother did, she reprogrammed Jung Won to "think" that Jae In is the primary person responsible. Hence, Jung Won was looking at Jae In with contempt."
yes, I think jung won's memory was altered so that it didn't contain se eun's. but, I don't think Jung won looked at Jae in with contempt. rather she seems to be looking with nonchalance/blankness because she is a blank program at this point.
I think Jung won was convinced that she had dreamed the whole thing once she sees that her friendship bracelet is still intact on her wrist. then, writer-nim put jung won in the corner of the bus just to push the plot device of: IT WASN'T A DREAM; IT WAS REALITY! whether she was inserted there for something deeper than to satisfy the plot device would be speculative as I don't think there's actual explanations or clues to give us a better theory unfortunately, at least from what I can see.

"IF I WAS MAFIA, I probably would have thought of having a scavenger hunt with their phones 💀"
remember that civilians can physically kill mafias during the day, and a day has to pass until the next voting phase. therefore, you'd have to devise a plan to make it not obvious that you're mafia too such as hiding your phone with them (which is risky) or make it so that even if it's obvious you're mafia, the civilians are in a helpless situation. if you're a psychopath, you can theoretically cut their ACL/tendons at night and make them crawl to look for their phones during the day, but that would be wild💀 💀.

"I gave it a 9.5 just cuz I like the whole mafia game concept and it was a thrilling drama to watch after my finals"
yeah, i understand. it's an entertaining drama with good acting. I was very impressed by some of them especially given their age. there are just a lot of glaring plot holes and issues with the writing, but if those factors don't concern you, they shouldn't deter your overall entertainment value of the drama.

a duty of a good writer is to know how much space you're given and provide information that is useful and has enough explanatory power. if the writer half-asses an idea in the show because she had limited resources, then that's not an excuse; it's a sign of a bad writer. i'd rather the writer use her limited resources properly by solidifying the scenarios and themes that she already explored than give us a lot of interesting scenarios yet most of them do not have their bases fully covered.
the only situation where I think the excuse of limited resources being appropriate is like if the writer literally was told it would be a 16 episode script but then she's told to edit it down to 12 very last minute.

it's not "spoon feeding" to give a simple explanation of the ghost, as it's one of the big mysteries of the show in the earlier episode. furthermore, in order to be "spoonfed," there has to be some "explanation" in the first. we're claiming that there's literally no explanation - not even a basic one. the explanation given in the drama is that there's a flash drive that shows the setting was programmed and that jung won is a programmed character. what does that have to do with the ghost?

here's a simple example: let's suppose that Mafia is one of many in a repository of games available in this particular VR database. the "ghost" was actually an interference with another horror game in that database. you could still add elements of the supernatural and mystery by questioning why this random bug helped yoon seo in an apparently meaningful way. and this example not only gives some physical explanation, but it also maintains the supernatural element by setting up some franchise potential for the series in future with various different games in this VR universe.
we don't get anything remotely like this in the show. all we get is: ghost. then, no ghost. and there's no significance to the ghost in the later episodes either as jung won or the host provides all the clues and explanations.

yeah that's what i remember too, which means they didn't give any backstory and didn't explain his circumstances.
it's hilarious how writer-nim went through such painstaking measures to keep yeon seo and jun hee alive, yet they have less depth and backstory than the supporting cast. such wasted potential.
if writer-nim killed off jun-hee in the game, but incorporated him into the game through like the FL's psychology, backstories, etc, and they end the series with FL waking up to the simulation at the end with a brief shot of all the classmates still alive (including jun hee), then the drama would have been heaps better and potentially sets up for season 2 a lot better too.

i agree with enigmatic. the ghost thing wasn't explained properly nor is it a trivial issue to resolve if we really think about it. for example, just the idea that a soul/ghost can possess computer programs is going to spark a lot of controversies.

probably he just goes straight to another game and everyone is playing a different game simultaneously or if they are required to play the same game; they end up in a sleep state until the next round begins. it's not explained.

i agree with you. story could have been much better if jun-hee remained dead. if they really wanted to use the character/actor, he could have played a greater role as a backstory, flashblack, and emotional support for the FL in her mind.
p.s. did they explain jun-hee's backstory and who drowned/why he's afraid of the pool?

their memory gets wiped and they restart. basically they're in a endless loop of playing mafia.

a compilation of why the final episodes were a huge mess. feel free to add more.
- mafia could have tossed everyone's phone across the boundary and win at any point; they could have injured or killed everyone at night at any point. very ez win for da beom, but nope, he goes, okay jung won, even though you're super bffs with yoon seo and jun hee, i'll totally believe you when you say you'll kill them...
- da beom who was very determined to kill yoon seo and jun hee just stopped... to threaten his mafia partner... then tries to kill her..? what? it's like that horrible and annoying trope where all the villain needs to do is pull the trigger to kill the hero, but he goes on a rant and allows the hero to find an opportunity to beat him. except this is 10x worse than that. da beom literally could stab yoon seo or jun hee and win the game immediately, but he's screaming and running around sweating for jun hee for god knows why.
- we still don't know how or why yeon woo got stabbed; we don't know how they planted evidence for mina and how they knew jun hee's plan. and they claim jung won was responsible for doctor's death. like she calculated that doc would follow the two bullies, get caught, and accidentally killed..? basically plot armor to the maximum.
- jun hee and yoon seo did not bully se eun and was, in fact, friendly to her yet the parents go DURRR, send them to hell. boohoo my daughter. my daughter no longer alive :( :( :(
- in fact, only a handful of kids actually instigated and bullied her. most were just bystanders who ignored the problem or believed a false rumor. yet... they deserve the same punishment as the bullies? what sort of logic is that. basically, if you're stupid and gullible even if you are decent or kind, you deserve to get punished according to the parents. *cough* everyone giving this drama higher than a 8.5 *cough*
- girl literally committed suicide because they deep faked her face to a porn star... like come on, at least give realistic reasons. I was so interested in how she got bullied, why everyone was traumatized, yet the big reveal is one of the tamest bully tactics there is... there have been youtube pranks 100x worse than this.
- Mafia is a random ass game. you could have punished the kids with so many interesting and relevant games, but no, parents want to go DURR i hate you all, so you guys all get to play a detective game muahahaha. that is your punishment! like, that's so random and doesn't make sense.
- frail and sick little FL literally just going to go back into the game without a fight. lololol. it's as if someone is robbing your house and all they say is "shhhhh, it's okay, just go back to sleep now" and you literally just fall back to sleep. wtf was that?
- what's the point of killing the kids over and over if you're just going to wipe their memories? that they played the games dozens of time already may sound spooky until you realize they don't remember anything right after.
- if jung won is an a.i. in the game, then wouldn't she remember all the previous iterations? if she doesn't, then the parents, who think jung won represents their daughter, are in a sense punishing their programmed daughter like everyone else???
- what the hell was the point of se eun's ghost arc if the game itself was revealing everything?
- and the most important question: how are the kids eating, pooping, and peeing irl?

more fundamental than that: how are they eating and shitting irl? lmaooo.

LMAOOO ADD COMEDY TO THE GENRE BECAUSE THAT ENDING IS THE BIGGEST JOKE. THE PARENTS ARE SO UPSET THAT THEY FORCE THE KIDS TO PLAY AN ETERNAL GAME OF MAFIA??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

"Imagine joining this site just to spread negativity. With Christmas around the corner? Couldn't be me."
could definitely be you: with the amount of shade you're throwing, you can blot out the sun for an entire city.

doesn't matter if it's a flashback nor if it's standard, it doesn't take away the cringiness one tiny bit.

yup, i agree. and i think this applies to most, if not all her works.

you're missing the point. as mafia, you MUST kill the civilians to survive no matter what. so, my question is, what is MORE RUTHLESS: you physically killing them as you play the game OR you allowing the system to kill them? probably it's more psychopathic and ruthless to play the game and physically kill the civilians???

yup, the fact that this is even possibly allowed is laughable.
the only caveat is that it'll be a witchhunt for the mafias by the civilians the next day, which is why mafia should tie up the civilians really well and barricade themselves really well to survive the day.
technically, mafia could even slash every civilians' tendon to prevent them from moving since mafia can theoretically wound you without killing you based on ep 10 (unless yeon woo lied).