winteraeon

The green flag era comments make me shudder physically. There is no redemption for what he’s done and he’s not even trying to do the work. He hasn’t apologized. I don’t think he even recognizes what he did wrong.

I worry about stuff like this in shows because I feel like it normalizes abuse and because no one in this show has gone “hey this is NOT OKAY” or “this is abusive.” They only focus on Joe’s death but I don’t even know if they know what Ming actually did that lead to it. And if no one in the show acknowledges how abusive Ming is I don’t think the viewers will realize it is either. Because these comments show people don’t realize what constitutes abuse.

that preview literally has me sick to my stomache. It looks like exactly what I expected from the series but I’ve been dreading it

I guess I look at Sol through the lens of knowing that just because you were rejected doesn’t mean the feelings go away. Just like how just because he was abused, kidnapped and had the career opportunity he had been working for ruined doesn’t mean Joe’s feelings for Ming went away.

I tend to give Sol the benefit of the doubt a lot and assume a lot of what he does is intended to be from a friend angle but his feelings get in the way more than he realizes. I also think the whole “he’s my boyfriend” thing at the press conference is unclear bc he did previously state that Joe’s character in the MV was intended as his bf in it and that was before he really had strong suspicions about Joe being Joe. I don’t assume that was a manipulative thing but a press titillation thing and many others interpreted that situation differently than I did.

I 100% agree that it’s clear to everyone Joe still had feelings for Ming. Sol SHOULD see that. And I think he does and that is why he keeps trying to get in the way, because Ming is the reason (indirectly) Joe died and everyone sees how awful and toxic Ming is. Is it his place to try to separate them? Not exactly but would I expect any good friend to do so? Yes. Again, I think his feelings for Joe get mixed up in that both with his actual actions and motivations at times and much more often with how viewers and even other characters perceive his actions.

I don’t think Sol has ever hidden the fact that he still has feelings for Joe. He’s pretty up front and transparent about it. But I see some of the reactions from Joe with him and it makes sense why Sol would think he might have a shot. Joe also keeps claiming he has no feelings for Ming, which means Sol shouldn’t have any reason to feel like he needs to reel it in either.

I think the biggest disconnect for fans vs the character is that for Sol three years have passed since Joe was with Ming. But viewers know that Joe more or less woke up the next day. He hasn’t had the time to actually process his feelings and create emotional distance from Ming and that relationship. To viewers it’s like pouncing on someone who broke up with someone yesterday but for Sol it’s been three years.

Joe’s mom is amazing! I adore her! She’s literally the one light in Joe’s life and must be protected.

I can choose to watch it and still think critically about its story, its themes and its characters. People can choose to engage in a more mindless capacity but it doesn’t mean everyone has to engage in that way.

This all started because you said you didn’t see anything Ming had done wrong. But Ming’s a highly problematic and abusive partner. If you minded someone potentially replying to point out what he had done wrong (I’m not saying you did, I’m legitimately saying “if” here), you had the choice to not make the comment as well. It’s fine if you want to take the series at face value as mindless entertainment. That’s totally a valid choice. That’s just not how I engage with it.

It’s not a trigger for me, but I do feel strongly about being responsible in the media that is created, understanding the implicit and explicit messages it sends to those who consume said media and not dressing up abuse as a love story, as is so often done. it’s a huge pet peeve of mine.

Ming did not tell him that from the beginning. He told him that fairly early on, in anger. Yes Joe did opt to stay knowing that, not because he thought he could change Ming (from what I’ve seen, I haven’t read the novel), but because he was in love with Ming. He opted to take whatever he got because he decided it was better than not being with him at all.

However, choosing to be involved with someone who isn’t serious about you when you have serious feelings for them is completely separate from signing up for an abusive relationship. People get into fwb situations, for example, and stay when they “catch feelings” for said friend. While it’s probably not a good situation for them in the long run, that isn’t necessarily consenting to being treated poorly or abusively within the confines of the established relationship. The abusive behavior we see from Ming has nothing to do with the boundaries he sets about the nature of their relationship or Joe’s constant craving for love that leads him to hope this is really what he thinks it is not what Ming claims it is (because Ming tends to contradict himself constantly with both words and actions). It has to do with Ming’s obsessive desire to possess and control Joe and the ways in which he lashes out when he doesn’t get what he wants from either Joe or Tong or feels threatened by another person or outside force.

“Is it abuse when you choose it”? Are you kidding me? People don’t choose abuse. If they did there would be no survivors of abuse (or dead victims of it). Abuse can be very hard to identify from the inside of the situation. People are conditioned to believe jealousy means someone cares about you and that you shouldn’t upset your partner. Abusers aren’t always abusive. They don’t just go around being awful ALL the time. Just like Ming was sometimes sweet to Joe. That’s why people in abusive relationships stay. They explain away the bad behavior. They justify it. “I shouldn’t have done that.” “They aren’t always like that.” These are things you hear all the time from people in abusive situations.

And yes, in more than one scene when Ming initiated sex either in an inappropriate place (the bathroom where he works) or otherwise as a clear reaction to him being mad or upset about it, Joe is seen physically trying to push him away. Just because he gives in does NOT make it not abusive. Just like how people who say no but give the person what they are being pressured for are not consenting, Joe is also not consenting in those interactions.

Please educate yourself about interpersonal abuse before stating ignorant things like “is it abuse when you choose it” and “he had a choice to leave but stayed and is a grown ass man.” These are dangerous and harmful sentiments for people who are actually in abusive situations and being gaslit that they aren’t because “well you didn’t leave,” “you can’t be raped by your husband” or “sure you said no at first but you changed your mind.”

I agree, he does need a break. He needs distance from Ming. And Sol. I actually love Sol but I think your criticism of him does have some validity with him being a bit too eager on the crush side. I think it makes his attempts to just look out for his friend come off differently than he intends because he does have other reasons for wanting them apart.

Joe needs to be able to figure out his own emotions and what he wants without the struggle for financial survival and everyone shoving their own feelings down his throat (sometimes literally, no doubt).

I know where things are going between Ming and Joe. I always have. And it made me really question whether or not I should watch it. The acting is really fantastic and it’s probably why I stick around. Poom and his expressive puppy dog eyes kill me. There is absolutely no justification for Ming’s behavior (which is outright abusive both to original Joe and Joe in the new body, don’t pretend otherwise). There is no redemption for it. But I’ve known since the first episode they would end up together. Somehow I continually hope that one day writers adapting stories like this will change the ending and not reconcile relationships with abusers. a startling number of people who escape their abusers return. It’s a horrifying and heartbreaking reality. But shows like this never make it the tragedy it is. In some alternate universe, I hope Joe gets the life he actually deserves. Free of Ming.

So it’s only okay if Ming manipulates him? Joe hasn’t had the room to think for himself since Ming started showing up everywhere.

Ming is, and always has been, incredibly abusive. Just because he isn’t physically abusive doesn’t change that fact. He is incredibly possessive, intentionally tries to isolate Joe, tells him what he can and cannot do and who he can and cannot see, has forced Joe into sexual situations he has blatantly said no to, is currently using money to control him. Just because he became obsessed with Joe when he no longer had him doesn’t absolve him of his past actions or his current ones. His controlling and manipulative behavior is well into abuse territory. He uses money to assert his dominance over a situation and get Joe to do what he wants and then puts him into uncomfortable situations he can’t refuse (for example: that ride home in todays episode) due to situational context so he can get his way.

Maybe you don’t know what abuse actually looks like when it’s not someone beating you or popular depictions of rape (violent, someone saying the no the whole time etc). Ming is absolute trash.

the trailer looked AMAZING! I’m not surprised it’s both this creepy and this intriguing since it’s Jeff, to be honest. And I love Barcode’s continuing thriller spree. Can’t wait for it! (will wait but can’t wait)

Same, I struggle with getting the intended impact bc I’ve seen so many dead fish kisses that initially I read the sniff kiss as as guys not wanting to actually kiss guys. I understand them a lot more now but it’s hard for me to rewire that perception in my brain of it not actually being a dead fish cheek kiss

I think this might be cultural and/or dependent upon one’s cultural understanding of Thai culture. Because I assume the sniff kiss comes off as much more innocent, playful and potentially platonic to a lot of non-Thai fans who aren’t familiar with sniff kisses or their place in Thai culture.

I am curious if you’d have the same reaction if they were both 16 filming the sorts of scenes that are in this story. This is not me defending or condemning the casting choices. I simply wonder because I’ve seen a lot of people say they should have cast someone for Pop’s role who is older because the role of Hero has a 27 yr old actor, but no one has considered that Hero’s casting is the outlier and they very possibly could have cast another teenager in that role.

However there are additional considerations to be had here. The actor playing Pop is young but is also an experienced actor who has been in the industry for a literal decade now. That means that either he and his guardians know how to navigate this space and ensure everything is safe and handled well or that he’s just been victimized for a decade and no one has cared or noticed. the latter certainly happens in the entertainment industry far too often but I can’t just assume that so I need to assume the former is possible.

In addition, I see concerns over this teenager being sexualized due to some of the types of scenes in the original story. Teenagers are already sexualized. Literally any teenage entertainer is already on that platter, it doesn’t matter what sort of performances they are doing. I’d also argue it’s probably advantageous for the teenager to have someone who is objectively an adult by his side for when promotions and fan events happen. Even though Mac is an established and experienced performer, it’s very likely that August can stop any inappropriate things from spiraling much faster just because people generally will respond to the adult first.

Lastly, the point about fan service I feel is completely moot. Fan service intensity is not reflective of the types of scenes performed so the rape scene and other potential NC scenes don’t have any bearing there. That leaves us with just normal fan service concerns. However, we’ve already seen Jeff and Barcode handle promotions and fan events for KinmPorsche. They also have a ten year age gap and Barcode was also underage at the time (he’s only 19 currently). Jeff was always very mindful and intentional of how he publicly interacted with Barcode and always was very firm about drawing a line with fans who pushed a romantic angle between them (this feeds back into my thought that having a legitimate adult as the CP partner could be advantageous). If August uses Jeff as his model for their interactions and appearances outside the series then the fan service isn’t something anyone will need to worry about.

Would it have been a good idea for various reasons to cast two people who are legal adults? yes. Would it have been potentially much worse if they wound up casting two people who are legal minors? Very likely. However the casting is the casting. They chose the people who auditioned who best fit the roles. Mac may have been so impressive that they couldn’t overlook him. There may not have been any adults who auditioned. We don’t know. But what we do know is Mac likely worked his ass off on the project and that work should be respected, as should the work of the numerous people who likely did their due diligence to ensure everything that was filmed was done so in a way that did not harm him mentally or emotionally.

I think you’ve overlooked the obvious here. We see Hyun go home after denying the person he wrote about was Dongho. He is visibly upset over it. The note says the words he couldn’t say stabbed him in the heart. He isn’t editing that ripped out entry to reflect what actually happened but rather what he wished happened.

It is still an open ending because it is up to the viewer to decide if he eventually confessed (bc hiding his feelings hurt more, as he wrote in the note) or if they remain friends since his reaction to the unseen Dongho entering the bookshop mirrors him entering the cafe.

I’m so stuck on the finale just leaving me with an overwhelming feeling of Meh. I think the last two episodes could have been used entirely differently without the family drama and the series would have been better for it.

I’m also stuck on how it looks like Iwanaga is the only one ever participating in the kiss. Miyata’s mouth just happens to be there…like an unmoving wall. at least the majority of the time.

I suspect if we got a second season we’d wind up with more questions and only a few answers, honestly.

There are also inconsistencies in the story and I’m not sure if that’s an unreliable narrator type of thing or just them forgetting something they did and then doing something else later on