So I was rating 10 the first 15 eps, then the script started to worsen really fast (plot holes, unbelievable actions,…
Also, you need to take into account the rating in the orange square is the one that has not been modified for multiple accounts by the same person rating the drama. When you swipe over the orange square it gives a verified rating. This rating sometimes is higher, lower, or right on target with the orange square. It means the rater has been verified as an official member of MDL.
To help you with that, think of Victor Ma as one aspect of Sang Yan personality (the brotherly side) and BJT as…
Yes, they are connected. Hidden Love is Sang Zhi's love story. Sang Yan is Sang Zhi's brother played by Victor Ma. The First Frost is Sang Yan's love story played by Bai Jing Ting. Victor Ma said in an interview that he didn't think he could pull off a romantic Sang Yan, thus why they changed actors for Sang Yan in The First Frost.
So in Hidden Love we get his brotherly side. We only get a hint of Sang Yan's romantic side which is the "dog" side of him. The First Frost explains why Sang Yan is always broody, comedic, and full of false bravado especially when it comes to women.
As I wrote to the op, think of The First Frost as Sang Yan's romantic personality and Hidden Love as his brotherly personality. We are all different when we are around different people in our lives as huahua1005 said.
For you, the dramas themselves may not cover societal values, but the government sure thinks so. It cares about what people are seeing, hence the censorship and propaganda.
Sometimes what is popular isn't always right. What is right isn't always popular.
You have every right to not sweat over who is worse, and you can justify your thoughts by just lumping both as evil. That is the fantasy genre. But at some point we as a society have to ask, how did we get this way. The fantasy genre is a great way of exploring this idea.
Have a great week, thank you for the discussion, and happy drama watching.
I just discovered The First Frost, which is the part with Sang Yan's own love story. Loved this second drama too…
To help you with that, think of Victor Ma as one aspect of Sang Yan personality (the brotherly side) and BJT as the romantic side of Sang Yan. Notice we do not get much hint on Sang Yan's romantic side in Hidden Love as they were saving it for The First Frost.
But I understand what you mean about trying to mesh the two sides of Sang Yan together, so you are not alone in that regard.
Yes, I watch dramas to understand a society's values on all subjects, not for entertainment. If it entertains me during the process, that is an added bonus. Unfortunately, I do not understand Chinese, and must rely on subtitles. I have been told that the subtitles are off on the channel that I watched it on, Netflix. Translation makes or breaks a drama.
I write to learn, so I will try and answer your question.
Yes, even good people must take responsibility for their actions and beliefs. Consequences of actions and beliefs can be good or bad. In this drama the women are constantly taking responsibility for what the men do and what they themselves do. None of the men, except the villains, are held accountable for their actions. Example, one of the leaders is a philanderer and is held in high regard as the leader of the sect. When the leader is killed in a compromising position (created by his illegitimate son) only then is his sin found out, but the "good" leader doesn't have to take responsibility for his actions. Instead his philandering ways are redeemed because the illegitimate son becomes a "bad" guy through his own actions, but it all stems from the leader not taking responsibility for his philandering ways.
A commenter has told me that the confession scene is where the translation is said to be flawed in the drama. In the drama, when JGY confesses to LXC about his sister, it makes it sound as if JGY knew he loved his sister in the wrong way, but went ahead and had sex with her anyway. In the end, his sin is found out because she has a child with him which he later kills. This commenter says that the translation is off because it is said that JGY married the girl he loved, got her pregnant, and then found out she was his sister. In the aftermath, JGY never touched her again and killed the baby from the union. That is what happened in the novel. Now, I have to argue if that is really the order of events in the drama. Let me explain.
Whether JGY knew his wife was his sister or not before he had sex with her, he ends up killing the baby from that union and in the end killing his sister to hide his sin. (What did the baby and sister do to deserve death). But it now asks the question, who is worse, a philandering leader (the father) or an incestuous killer (the son)? Talk about the sins of the father affecting the son. This takes that belief to a whole new level. This minimizes the fact that the father does not take responsibility for his philandering ways, and the other leaders of the different sects uphold him as a virtuous man. It is a woman who tells JGY that the woman he loves is his sister and only after he is married to her. Now, once he finds out, instead of divorcing her immediately (he doesn't have to give a detailed reason for the divorce), he hides her away in his treasure vault (another interesting image created by the writers). This is why I have to question if the translation is wrong in the drama.
What is interesting is in the novel this same philandering leader has a son, Mo Xuan Yu, who is gay and hits on all the disciples while he is at the sect compound. MXY is eventually thrown out of the sect because of his homosexuality. In the drama, the writers mirror what happens to WWX in the novel onto JGY our villain. Now interpret that as you will.
As I said, the writers had a wonderful opportunity to take the novel and create a heavy social commentary on life in China for women and homosexuals. Instead we got a censored relationship and propaganda about how women and homosexuality should be hidden away, women should take responsibility for men's actions, and women should die to protect their family. Men, good or bad, just need to live their lives with little to no consequences for their actions. Sorry, I can't perpetuate that kind of message.
Yesterday, I started watching Word of Honor. OMG, I was hooked and binged five episodes in one day. The chemistry between the two main leads is through the roof. The sexual innuendos are prevalent throughout the five episodes that I have watched, and yet it, too, is a censored danmei. As matter of fact, I feel like I am watching a remake of The Untamed only done much better.
This is just my opinion and feel free to disagree.
Thank you for the discussion and your insights. Happy drama watching.
I understand. LLtG is not for everyone. Don't know if I will continue Joy of Life as it took me a year to get through season 1. I did watch the first episode of Season 2 to see how they brought back the characters.
Do you know how there are some actors/actresses who just grab you and you want to watch them in other things? Well, I tried to watch some of the main actors in their other dramas and they didn't capture my attention there either. Maybe as the 3rd season comes, I may watch the second season. What I did like about this drama was that one of the main characters had a physical disability. That is something I have not seen in Chinese dramas. Main characters can be blind, but not have any physical disabilities.
You and I seem to be on the same wave length with this one. I, too, felt this was a parody on some of the more recent dramas. I haven't laughed so hard since the first 20 episodes of The Double. I am only on episode 25, so I haven't seen her war scenes yet. I will just continue to think of this as a parody.
Thank you for the spoiler. That's interesting about the mother in Joy of Life. I kinda picked that up in the last few episodes of the drama. Niao Niao's character in the novel is also a trans-migrator, but they took it out of LLtG due to the time travel ban in dramas. Also, I think Zhao Lu Si would not have played the part if it had been left in there as she prefers to portray characters who use their own abilities rather than relying on "something" else. That was the point of the whole drama. Women are capable of creating and doing things and should be given the recognition and venue to do so.
It sounds like Joy of Life and LLtG were trying to get at the same thing, just through a different means.
Thank you for the different perspective on this drama. I'm glad that you enjoyed it (I noticed you rated it a 10). I can agree with you that the writers took a strong stance on surface judgement, but in the end, it still caves to the Chinese position on homosexuality and views on women. Men do not have to take responsibility for their actions, but women have to. Notice all the important women in this drama die. The two main characters split up in the end even though they are soulmates and best friends. The only men who take responsibility for their actions are the villains. All of them die as their deeds are too terrible to let them live.
For me, I think the writers tried to do a social commentary on Chinese life and failed miserably through weak directing, amateur at best acting, and poor storytelling. What I can appreciate is the cultural value of this drama.
Of course this is all my opinion and anyone can disagree, which it looks like many viewers do and that is okay.
You have made my point. Both men are afraid of their wives and their accomplishments, yet somehow the men look better for these accomplishments. You do not see the emperor rewarding the mother specifically for her accomplishments on the battlefield. It is the husband who is rewarded. NN is rewarded specifically because of her achievements in Huo County, and this is because LBY asks the emperor to do so.
There is a very telling scene in LLtG with mom. When NN receives her praise from the emperor, mom is seen turning her head. I am not quite sure how to interpret the look she has. Is it one of jealousy, disgust, or happiness that NN is individually recognized for her accomplishments in Huo County? If I go with her character, mom would be jealous after all she worked hard along side her husband, and it was the husband who was praised. The mother's husband did not ask the emperor to praise his wife for all her contributions on the battlefield.
LLtG makes the point that women should be recognized for their own accomplishments, not have them connected to the men in their life.
I will have to take your word for Joy of Life as I have only watched the first season and struggled to get through that. In the first season of Joy of Life, the main character's mom is dead and her ideals have long been forgotten, so you could say she has been overshadowed by the men in her life even though she fought for equality.
As for Zhao Lu Si, her first drama "Untouchable Lovers", she was a social activist. Her character, even though she was "the villain" talked about not using women as pawns to form alliances and gain power even though she had a very shallow character.
Thanks for the discussion and happy drama watching.
Most people don't watch Zhao Lu Si's dramas for their depth. She is quite the social activist in her dramas.
Yes, Niao Niao is the one who stays with her grandmother on her father's side. Not sure whose grandmother Fan Xian stays with (his adoptive parents maybe?).
it's absolutely perfect for the genre, literally nothing other than yanxi palace can even be compared to it
I disagree. The characters in Ming Lan are stagnant to their time period in history. They represent a period of time in history where women were thought to be baby makers, mothers, and keepers of the home. They held no real power, except in the home. To use your words, "they are stuck in a time capsule". Even if you watched it in 2415, the characters would give off the same message. Women should be baby makers, mothers, and keepers of the home. This concept of women is changing and expanding. In most societies they recognize that women are people with their own thoughts, desires, and ambitions. They are not limited to just being homemakers.
Furthermore, the characters are stuck in the time period when the drama was made 2010-2019. During this time the Chinese ended the one child policy. The government encouraged families to have more than one child. Who is going to raise these children? Well, the age old belief that women should be keepers of the home comes back into play, thus the Story of Min Lan. Notice the characters who go against this concept are rewarded with terrible lives. Ming Lan's life is consistently made better because she followed the rules of womanhood for the time.
On the other hand, Love Like the Galaxy is timeless. You could watch it in 2415, and its messages on women, discipline, nepotism, favoritism would still be relevant even though it was set in the Han dynasty where women basically had two choices (get married or a nunnery). Niao Niao is a timeless character. Her ideas that women can do and be anything are timeless. If they want to be mothers and keepers of the home, it becomes a choice, not a given role that women throughout time have been forced to play. Unlike Ming Lan whose only purpose is to push forward the belief that women should only be certain things in life. Ming Lan is a product of her time both in the drama and outside the drama.
it's absolutely perfect for the genre, literally nothing other than yanxi palace can even be compared to it
I watched not even knowing who Zhao Li Ying is. I enjoyed it to episode 55 and then skipped to the end and felt I didn't miss a thing. Later on I realized Zhao Li Ying plays the same character, different name, in all her dramas. Sorry if you are a Zhao Li Ying fan.
Actually, I think there are some modern day dramas that should be considered masterpieces as the characters are timeless. jmo
it's absolutely perfect for the genre, literally nothing other than yanxi palace can even be compared to it
Glad you enjoyed the discussion, so are you telling me that I am trapped in a time capsule? Yes, I understand that movies and dramas from earlier times can be masterpieces. However, The Story of Ming Lan as stated above is a product of its time, just because it is popular doesn't make it a masterpiece.
or you just have limited emotional range, because how dare men have relationships and emotions that aren't sexually…
Yes, you're right its possible. However, as I wrote a long time ago, if you replace one of the boys with a woman and have the same effect than it is love.
Happy drama watching.
So in Hidden Love we get his brotherly side. We only get a hint of Sang Yan's romantic side which is the "dog" side of him. The First Frost explains why Sang Yan is always broody, comedic, and full of false bravado especially when it comes to women.
As I wrote to the op, think of The First Frost as Sang Yan's romantic personality and Hidden Love as his brotherly personality. We are all different when we are around different people in our lives as huahua1005 said.
Hope this helps.
Sometimes what is popular isn't always right. What is right isn't always popular.
You have every right to not sweat over who is worse, and you can justify your thoughts by just lumping both as evil. That is the fantasy genre. But at some point we as a society have to ask, how did we get this way. The fantasy genre is a great way of exploring this idea.
Have a great week, thank you for the discussion, and happy drama watching.
But I understand what you mean about trying to mesh the two sides of Sang Yan together, so you are not alone in that regard.
I write to learn, so I will try and answer your question.
Yes, even good people must take responsibility for their actions and beliefs. Consequences of actions and beliefs can be good or bad. In this drama the women are constantly taking responsibility for what the men do and what they themselves do. None of the men, except the villains, are held accountable for their actions. Example, one of the leaders is a philanderer and is held in high regard as the leader of the sect. When the leader is killed in a compromising position (created by his illegitimate son) only then is his sin found out, but the "good" leader doesn't have to take responsibility for his actions. Instead his philandering ways are redeemed because the illegitimate son becomes a "bad" guy through his own actions, but it all stems from the leader not taking responsibility for his philandering ways.
A commenter has told me that the confession scene is where the translation is said to be flawed in the drama. In the drama, when JGY confesses to LXC about his sister, it makes it sound as if JGY knew he loved his sister in the wrong way, but went ahead and had sex with her anyway. In the end, his sin is found out because she has a child with him which he later kills. This commenter says that the translation is off because it is said that JGY married the girl he loved, got her pregnant, and then found out she was his sister. In the aftermath, JGY never touched her again and killed the baby from the union. That is what happened in the novel. Now, I have to argue if that is really the order of events in the drama. Let me explain.
Whether JGY knew his wife was his sister or not before he had sex with her, he ends up killing the baby from that union and in the end killing his sister to hide his sin. (What did the baby and sister do to deserve death). But it now asks the question, who is worse, a philandering leader (the father) or an incestuous killer (the son)? Talk about the sins of the father affecting the son. This takes that belief to a whole new level. This minimizes the fact that the father does not take responsibility for his philandering ways, and the other leaders of the different sects uphold him as a virtuous man. It is a woman who tells JGY that the woman he loves is his sister and only after he is married to her. Now, once he finds out, instead of divorcing her immediately (he doesn't have to give a detailed reason for the divorce), he hides her away in his treasure vault (another interesting image created by the writers). This is why I have to question if the translation is wrong in the drama.
What is interesting is in the novel this same philandering leader has a son, Mo Xuan Yu, who is gay and hits on all the disciples while he is at the sect compound. MXY is eventually thrown out of the sect because of his homosexuality. In the drama, the writers mirror what happens to WWX in the novel onto JGY our villain. Now interpret that as you will.
As I said, the writers had a wonderful opportunity to take the novel and create a heavy social commentary on life in China for women and homosexuals. Instead we got a censored relationship and propaganda about how women and homosexuality should be hidden away, women should take responsibility for men's actions, and women should die to protect their family. Men, good or bad, just need to live their lives with little to no consequences for their actions. Sorry, I can't perpetuate that kind of message.
Yesterday, I started watching Word of Honor. OMG, I was hooked and binged five episodes in one day. The chemistry between the two main leads is through the roof. The sexual innuendos are prevalent throughout the five episodes that I have watched, and yet it, too, is a censored danmei. As matter of fact, I feel like I am watching a remake of The Untamed only done much better.
This is just my opinion and feel free to disagree.
Thank you for the discussion and your insights. Happy drama watching.
Do you know how there are some actors/actresses who just grab you and you want to watch them in other things? Well, I tried to watch some of the main actors in their other dramas and they didn't capture my attention there either. Maybe as the 3rd season comes, I may watch the second season. What I did like about this drama was that one of the main characters had a physical disability. That is something I have not seen in Chinese dramas. Main characters can be blind, but not have any physical disabilities.
Thank you for the discussion and insights.
It sounds like Joy of Life and LLtG were trying to get at the same thing, just through a different means.
For me, I think the writers tried to do a social commentary on Chinese life and failed miserably through weak directing, amateur at best acting, and poor storytelling. What I can appreciate is the cultural value of this drama.
Of course this is all my opinion and anyone can disagree, which it looks like many viewers do and that is okay.
There is a very telling scene in LLtG with mom. When NN receives her praise from the emperor, mom is seen turning her head. I am not quite sure how to interpret the look she has. Is it one of jealousy, disgust, or happiness that NN is individually recognized for her accomplishments in Huo County? If I go with her character, mom would be jealous after all she worked hard along side her husband, and it was the husband who was praised. The mother's husband did not ask the emperor to praise his wife for all her contributions on the battlefield.
LLtG makes the point that women should be recognized for their own accomplishments, not have them connected to the men in their life.
I will have to take your word for Joy of Life as I have only watched the first season and struggled to get through that. In the first season of Joy of Life, the main character's mom is dead and her ideals have long been forgotten, so you could say she has been overshadowed by the men in her life even though she fought for equality.
As for Zhao Lu Si, her first drama "Untouchable Lovers", she was a social activist. Her character, even though she was "the villain" talked about not using women as pawns to form alliances and gain power even though she had a very shallow character.
Thanks for the discussion and happy drama watching.
Yes, Niao Niao is the one who stays with her grandmother on her father's side. Not sure whose grandmother Fan Xian stays with (his adoptive parents maybe?).
Furthermore, the characters are stuck in the time period when the drama was made 2010-2019. During this time the Chinese ended the one child policy. The government encouraged families to have more than one child. Who is going to raise these children? Well, the age old belief that women should be keepers of the home comes back into play, thus the Story of Min Lan. Notice the characters who go against this concept are rewarded with terrible lives. Ming Lan's life is consistently made better because she followed the rules of womanhood for the time.
On the other hand, Love Like the Galaxy is timeless. You could watch it in 2415, and its messages on women, discipline, nepotism, favoritism would still be relevant even though it was set in the Han dynasty where women basically had two choices (get married or a nunnery). Niao Niao is a timeless character. Her ideas that women can do and be anything are timeless. If they want to be mothers and keepers of the home, it becomes a choice, not a given role that women throughout time have been forced to play. Unlike Ming Lan whose only purpose is to push forward the belief that women should only be certain things in life. Ming Lan is a product of her time both in the drama and outside the drama.
Thanks for the discussion.
Actually, I think there are some modern day dramas that should be considered masterpieces as the characters are timeless. jmo
Happy drama watching!