Platinum Fox

Thank you for providing this wonderful insight into the music that was played by the two girls. I have seen this done in other dramas and found it very beautiful. I also like your insight on the Shakespearean reference about Desdemona.

Kile is poking fun at the fact that every time Duke Su sits down to do anything he always drinking tea and eating. He even does it while he is interrogating Jiang Li.

Yes, you will have to read the novel to find out though as the topics of the novel are quite taboo. These topics are hinted at in the drama in a comedic way, even Duke Su's with his two sidekicks.

I understand what you are saying and no they are not parodies as the books were not written to poke fun at the original novel. As you say, they are only trying to get in on the popularity of that trend of the time. The drama is not a parody on the novels of these books. It is a parody on the dramas themselves which have all come out before this. The screenwriters are poking fun at these popular dramas, not the novels. Your comments helped solidify that for me.

Talia Too, not sure what you are referring to when you said you have tried to tell me a couple of times that it is not a parody. The definition of a parody is an imitation of the style of a particular writer, artist, or genre with deliberate exaggeration for comic effect. The use of the title The Double is that it can be to some people such as yourself and others that it is a distinct drama based on a book in and of itself. Yet, if you look at the characters, what they say (by the way I loved your comments in the discussion), their actions, and beliefs and the over the top acting of the characters lets you know that this is more than just a serious drama. Let me give you an example of what I mean. Duke Su and his two side kicks are General Ling and his two side kicks. One of the side kicks is serious and the other gets disciplined with 20 strokes for nothing. This is to poke fun at when General Ling disciplined Fei with 10 strokes for taking the invitation and 10 strokes for throwing it away when General Ling wanted to go the party. I can go on and on about this. If you would like I can give you more examples from even the other dramas that I mentioned. The first 20 episodes that I have watched were very well done, but unlike yourself (and there is nothing wrong with that and glad you enjoyed it) I can't take this as a serious drama.

I have to agree with you on the last two episodes. I didn't quite understand what happened either. I thought he died and he was a ghost tailing her. I felt they could have ended it at the airport.

Yes, there is a double meaning. Have you not noticed that most of the scenes and characters are taken from popular dramas. People do not realize that this is a parody on Love Like The Galaxy (Duke Su and his two side kicks, Princess Wan Ning , Who Rules the World, Princess Wei Young, The Story of Ming Lin, Nirvana in Fire, etc.

First, we need to clarify from which book the two main characters receive their personalities, actions, and beliefs. You said, “TEE is not exactly an example of how to portray women characters for starters''. You’re right. Sang Zhi is not based on Noys. Sang Zhi is based on the main character in the novel Hidden Love who is 13 and the boy she has a crush on is 21/22. Zhao Lu Si usually plays 14/15/16 year old characters (even though she is presently 25). However, she couldn’t play the 14 year old role because she is too tall. The girl who played her character at that time was actually 11 and played Zhao Lu Si’s character at a young age in Who Rules the World. Again, this is to emphasize that 14-year-old’s are still children. The Chinese symbols for her character are the bear and the puffer fish. The bear means protector. The puffer fish means good fortune. DJX is based on Harlan from TEE. Everything from his personality, looks, independence, and job description. He is symbolized by the fox and the dog. The fox means teacher and beautiful. The dog means that is explained in the story..

Now to answer your question about Sang Zhi and her thinking of him as a brother. There are many examples of how she does this. First, when the two first meet, she believes that he is her brother who has had plastic surgery. Then, DJX is literally her brother when he introduces himself as Sang Yan to the teacher and takes on the brotherly role of disciplining her as he talks to the teacher. She is the one who has manipulated this outcome and createsthis identity for him at this time. In the doorway, she yells at her brother, “Yeah and everyone thinks you’re my dad.” This leaves the door open for DJX to become her brother. Finally, there is a scene where she is riding the bus and says, “I wish I had a brother like DJX”. This is followed by the first temporal node and the brother of her dreams is created.

Temporal node 1: three years have gone by and they have lost contact with each other. She has a crush on him by this time. When they meet at the car, there is a brief moment where they could become a couple as by now she has grown up and no longer looks like a little girl. You can see that he takes notice of this. However, in the dorm room and car scene, the brother shuts down any kind of “boyfriend” scenario. DJX must remain a brother and even she continues this on field day when she tells her brother she wants DJX to be her brother not him. This is in response to the essay that DJX wrote. When she gets hurt, we are again reminded of the scene in the doorway (Sang Yan is the dad and DJX is the brother). A commenter has told me that at this time she calls him “old older brother”. Everything that she does for him during this time can be seen as a sisterly thing to do, not what a girlfriend would do (jelly beans and a star wishing him a happy New Year in a red packet, buying him a tie, and giving him money and flowers at his graduation). These are all things she does for her brother as well as him. By now his “identity” for her is fully entrenched. But if you juxtapose what DJX does and what the brother does next to each other, you will see that DJX is now manipulating the outcome as well as her. He does things that could be considered brotherly or boyfriend things (gets her a bear plushie, treats her and her friend to a dessert, goes on a bicycle ride with her on the back, pays attention to her clothes she is wearing -period scene-, and takes her on a “date” to his favorite place, the museum). During this time her misunderstandings of his actions: helping the girl on field day and him having a girlfriend create the unrequited love story found in the novel Hidden Love.

Temporal node 2: By this time she is almost 19. She believes that by now he has a girlfriend and has ghosted him. When they meet again, he is really angry because he doesn’t understand why she ghosted him. She gives the excuse that she had to study and didn’t have her phone. To her, he is no longer god-like as the sun doesn’t shine down on him. He is not her teacher anymore as well. When he takes her back to her dorm, we are again reminded of the doorway scene when she says, “Do you want to be my dad?” when they talk about acceptable terms he can call her besides kiddo. Now is the time when they can be a couple. Nothing is in their way. However, after the hospital sequence, she again misunderstands the joke and she resets her phone to Brother #2. Throughout the drama, she believes that he is her brother because of all the misunderstandings about him that she has created. They are only dispelled when he clearly asks her if he can court her thus changing his status from brother to boyfriend. There are some awkward moments at the movies as this shift happens for them both and the audience.

Yes, I have invested a lot of time and energy into understanding why Zhao Lu Si would play this role in such a simple love story. She always plays characters who challenge a long held societal belief. At first I thought it was just the sins of the father should not affect the family, but her childish voice and the scene in episode 25 where we see at the beginning that the brother gave DJX permission to be Sang Zhi’s brother soon led me to something else. The book TEE, the fox picture, all the animal symbolism, the camera angles, choice of cast members (14 year old Sang Zhi and mother), and placement of people, the maths, etc.all tell me why.

Thank you for taking the time to have a discussion with me. I have really enjoyed getting another point of view on this drama, and you have given me some food for thought. You are right it is a youth educational drama. I agree with you on that, but it is also a social commentary for the older generation who might watch it (and many have with their younger children). You are also right in that kdramas do have more social commentaries than Chinese ones. Recently, I watched several Korean ones: Silenced (child sexual abuse), The Glory (bullying and domestic abuse), and Death’s Game (suicide). They are very graphic and explicit and would probably never make it past the Chinese censors. Only one I can think of or have seen is Better Days. It traces the history of bullying laws in China and the incident that started them all. It is very graphic and is done by independent film companies, not the government. HIdden Love is actually sponsored by the Chinese government, so again must make it past the censors. Thus, it cannot come right out and say anything negative about the law. People have tried to change the age of consent law, but with no luck. If you can’t change the law, change the mindset of the people (agree with you on education on this). I will check out the dramas you recommended as I am in a bit of a drama slump. Thank you.

Thank you, that definitely helped me understand some things that were bugging me about the drama. Did you ever go back to the drama? There is a reason why they are calling each other that.

I understand what you are saying now. Don't know if I agree or disagree with you yet as there has been so much in this drama to ponder. Revenge is a common theme in costume period dramas. Since the writers have turned pretty much every trope in this genre upside down in this drama, I think that is what they are doing here. Is personal revenge really worth the cost? The mirror image of this concept is He Zhao Jun. She went through the legal way of getting revenge. LBY, on the other hand, did it on his own. The marked differences though are He Zhao Jun's justice is immediate and clear about who did it and why. LBY's has been simmering on the back burner for 15 years. The culprits are not readily identifiable, nor the motive clear. So the idea of revenge has had time to grow and blossom. This makes it clear why he would want to seek revenge for his family and the people of Gao City.

You have a very clear idea of justice in mind and I respect that. I, on the other hand, have never been in the situation that He Zhao Jun or LBY faced, so I can't say what I would do.

How does LBY have a warped sense of justice? His father was killed by his uncle and the rest of his family were slaughtered on the battlefield or so they couldn't get revenge. He and his aunt were fortunate enough to survive the massacre. How the aunt did we will never know. The people he is fighting against slaughtered an entire city sparing no one. Those people should be brought to justice. Whether they were rebelling against the emperor or just doing it for power. Unless you feel like the emperor who thought LBY should just forget what happened to his family and live his life with no justice. If LBY did that he would have had to continue to live as LBY and not who he really is. So in this case, bloodbaths are okay to survive as his true self.

As for Shao Shang, she already understood his need for justice and revenge. She just didn't know why because he wouldn't talk with her about it. If the 3rd prince hadn't come to get her, she would have died as well. The family even had a coffin already built for her. Shao Shang didn't leave LBY just because he left her at the cliff. She left him because they were not on the same page about what love is. LBY kept saying that because they are husband and wife, they should tell each other everything and work together. But he didn't actually believe that in his heart. People give the excuse it is because he didn't want to implicate her family. Then, why ask her to marry him before getting revenge. He purposely stands her up on the night before their marriage. She did the smartest thing she could do, she broke it off with him.

Exactly, I think that is the point the writers were trying to make. War is pointless and no one wins in the end. Think of all the wars going on all over the world. What are they fighting for and who is actually dying? It is not the rulers themselves. It is the innocent people and soldiers who are in the army. Who should really rule the world, the people, and the king, president, emperor, etc. should represent them, not their own agenda. Unfortunately that is not how power works.

You are correct. The End of Eternity is not literally about the age of consent and marriage laws in China. The purpose of the sci-fi genre is to use futuristic elements to speak on present day issues. The screenwriters would never do this directly as it would never make it past the censors and speaking out against the government could be detrimental to one's health and well being. Like you, others will interpret the use of that book as a way to show how intellectually different they are during that scenario, which is definitely true. It is also a way to sneak in the idea of a social commentary. Something I find many viewers do not believe can or would be done in Asian dramas. You have said that it has been a while since you read the book, so you have probably forgotten some of the details of the novel. The screenwriters use details, concepts, and the structure of TEE to create a social commentary of these laws.

Some details used are the age gap of the couple and Harlan’s belief of Noys being a child when it comes to her knowledge of Eternity.The age gap of the couple in TEE is five years. Harlan is 32 and Noys is 27. Since there is no issue at this time with their age gap, the screenwriter(s) played the “what if” game (the most important concept of the novel). How will viewers respond to this age gap in three separate scenarios?

The first one is when she is 14 (old enough to consent) and he is 19 (too young to get married, but considered an adult, and old enough to consent). At this time in reality, DJX and Sang Zhi, like it or not, could legally engage in a sexual relationship without DJX going to jail for statutory rape or being a rapist. However, as the drama makes clear, 14 year olds are still children, and people would have considered DJX a pervert (her friend in college during the discussion, her family, the viewers) if he had done so. So the question becomes is it morally right, even though it is legally right? To ensure the comfort of the audience, DJX’s identity becomes that of a brother figure. In addition, to imitate Harlan’s tube at this time, the screenwriters use multiple flashbacks to 14 in juxtaposition to the present (17), and then the temporal node of three years to represent the final trip to the future (17). This was very craftily done to make it feel like the audience is going through Harlan’s tube with the character. But to really show you they wanted to do this, they gave her a“boyfriend” her own age. If he would have kissed her or had sex with her, we would have chalked it up to teens exploring their sexuality. We may have frowned a little bit, but not nearly as bad as with the age gap of DJX and Sang Zhi.

When the second scenario occurs she is 17 and he is 22. This is a morally gray area. She is not an adult, nor is she really a child and biologically she is ready to mate (the period scene). He, on the other hand, is an adult, is of marriageable age, and can consent. In reality, they again could have a sexual relationship, and it probably wouldn’t be as frowned upon by outside people. Also, you know that she is definitely interested in him, and she would have consented (her fox drawing tells you this). But because Sang Zhi at 14 created DJX’s identity (thank TEE for this concept) as a brother, she can only see him as a brother, and this creates the unrequited love story found in the Hidden Love novel. This is the cost (a concept found in TEE) of making him a brother at 14. During this time you know that DJX has become interested in her for more than just a sister (episode 23), but nothing materializes because brother and his friend Quan Fei shut DJX down when he tries to hit on her in the car. This tells you it is okay for him to be a brother, but not a boyfriend. Again, this is the cost of making him a brother when she is 14. Another aspect of this is when she makes up an “imaginary” boyfriend who lives in Yi He who is older. We all know that she talking about DJX. The parents and even DJX are concerned about this. Given everything that she is, the drama is saying that even though she is biologically a woman, she is still a child because she is not 18 the age of majority, nor is she of marriageable age. Thus why she continues to act and talk like a child because she is, yet she is old enough to consent to sex. So the question is at this age is she a woman or child? Is she ready for sex or not? Again, the screenwriters give her a “boyfriend” her age. If she had consented with him, the family wouldn’t have been so concerned. They would have chalked it up to her going through her rebellious stage. In reality, this must be what happened to your friend. The male must have been at least 22 or of marriageable age, and because your friend was 16 she falls under the age of consent. That marriage could have happened as the male is not considered a rapist. He is able to carry on a sexual relationship with her. Is this morally right, no, is it illegal, no. People can find a way to get around the law if it means it will make their lives better even at the expense of one. This is the cost of having the age of consent at 14. During this time, Harlan’s tube stays in one place when he discovers and falls in love with Noys by entering her house. He hides this from his superiors and acts like he does not like her, but he continues to see her. DJX does the same with Sang Zhi many things that he does he hides from the brother and her parents. When they are at the airport, the only toy she gives back is the bear plushie. He doesn’t understand why she does this. At the airport is the only time there are flashbacks and then she “ghosts” him for a year and a half? (temporal node). She is now 18 and about to be 19 in a couple of months.

This is the scenario you wanted to start with. At this time she is 19 and he is 24. No problems right? According to Chinese marriage laws she is still a minor, but considered adult enough to have sex; drink alcohol; hold a job; enter into business contracts; join the army, etc because she is 18 above the age of consent and age of majority.). By this time, he is a full blown adult with an apartment, a job, a car, etc. The hospital scene illustrates the social commentary for this scenario along with episode 23 the bar scene. During this time they begin a sexual relationship, but no one is concerned about it because she is older than the age of majority, has full consent rights, and turns 20 during the last temporal node. Now she can get married and live happily ever after. She is no longer a child.

In the United States we have an expression when something lasts a long time, “This is taking an eternity.” In the novel TEE Eternity ends. In the drama, eternity (childhood) ends when she turns 20. “Time has its own kind of magic. It brings us closer in height and distance.” Time also can change mindsets if given the right seeds at the right age. Even if no one understands why TEE is in the drama, the seeds of waiting until you are older for a sexual relationship is still entrenched in this drama and others as you so clearly put it. Each time it is reinforced, it will grow stronger until one day it will flower and bloom.

There is so much more that the screenwriters took from The End of Eternity. This isn’t even half of it. You need to read it again and then watch Hidden Love again. I think you will find it is more than just a “youth educational” film. Happy reading and watching again.

Thank you for the discussion. I have quite enjoyed it as nobody I know has read this book. Commenters just think I am crazy. Also, your last post made me think of some other reasons why the screenwriters used TEE in the drama.

I watched it one episode every day or so; that way I didn't feel like it was too long. Also, the actors feel so comfortable and natural together that it doesn't really seem like a drama. It is almost like you are peering into someone else's life, imo.

You are right up to the point where the three of them figure out that Yu Wu Yuan is the villain. They do fight pointless battles, but while they are busy fighting each other for supremacy, Yu Wu Yuan takes over the emperor's throne as an act of revenge for his family. Once the three of them learn of this, they fight Yu Wu Yuan and beat him. Lan Xi with only 10 years left to live realizes there is more to life than power you have to fight keep.

If you like chess then this drama is for you. It literally is a well played out chess game between the main male lead and the king. There is very little romance and warning sad ending. Brief plot outline, the king had the male lead's family all killed because he thought they were traitors. The male lead survived and plots his revenge as a skillful game of chess. There are some gory scenes, but it is mainly a strategy drama.

No, you didn't miss it. However, I didn't really feel like I needed her backstory as much as we needed his to advance the story. We do know that her dad died when she was in university and presently her mom takes care of the little girl when they need her too. They seem to have more of a relationship with her mother, than with "his" parents.

Thank you so much for your response. Did you read The End of Eternity? I can see that these issues are very sensitive to you, so I hope I have not offended you in any way. I am only looking at it from a limited point of view based on the drama. I agree with you it is not enough to change people's minds immediately, but you have to start somewhere. A journey starts with the first step.

Correct me if I am wrong, I understand that TV is the most efficient way to get out a social message as most people, especially in the rural areas do not know how to read. TV and movies are a powerful medium to promote social change. I can only think of two other dramas that carry a positive social message: Love Like The Galaxy and The Legend of Shen Li. If more dramas promote what should be the right way to do things and if people (young and old) see a model of how things should be, then wouldn't this go a long way in changing the laws and behaviors of a nation? Hollywood has been using the media for social change since its conception. Also, The End of Eternity promotes that change comes in small doses can't this be a small dose? However, with change comes costs.

Also, I am sorry to hear about your friend. No one that young should be forced to marry someone. Have you heard from her? Is she okay?

Yes, your interpretation of the story is just as valid as mine. I have enjoyed reading it. For me, I have a different interpretation on Bong Hwan. He loves the king and queen and wants to see them happy and successful. It is why he runs out of the hospital once he wakes up to see what has happened to them. He is very happy that he was able to help the king succeed in changing his destiny. Then, because Bong Hwan has helped the king succeed in changing his fate, Bong Hwan has also changed his own fate and comes home to hero's welcome. In addition, he learns what it is like to be a woman and feel what women go through, especially when it comes to love. From then on we know that he will treat women differently. Both of these things make me happy which is why I say it mostly a happy ending.

In the end, I do see your point and agree with you. He loved the king, the queen, and the maid and he did lose them. That is sad and I am sure he will mourn them like he would his own family. Thank you for pointing that out to me. This point makes this drama a bittersweet ending.

Again, thank you for your interpretation. I really do enjoy seeing how other people view a drama. It's what this discussion forum is all about.

I see your point and understand what you are saying, but I have to disagree with you. One, the king fell in love with the queen when they were in the well as children. He just didn't know it at the time because of how dark the well was. Also, his family was being slaughtered by her family, and Hwa Jin assumed So Yong's identity as the person who saved him. Remember the queen was someone who was very well read in all forms of literature, poetry, and politics. She had acted like a boy since she was young. She read things she was not suppose to, like the book she gave to the king in the well. That book held the code to the insurrectionists plan to overthrow the powerful families and create a more democratic society. We can already see that she was much like him in her beliefs even back then. For her time, she was a boy in behavior and ideology in a girl's body. This leads us to the present day.

In the first episode the maids reported that the queen was acting weird even before Bong Hwan entered her body. We don't know what those weird things were, but they were weird enough to report to the king and family members. In her suicide note, she wrote that because of her family she was not able to be her true self (the girl the king fell in love with many years ago). She was not able to tell him that she wanted the same things he did. Because the king perceived her to be someone who stood for what the powerful family believed and was sent to spy on him. He would not even listen to her.

When Bong Hwan entered So Yong's body, she literally became a boy in a girl's body. Bong Hwan told the king at the very beginning that he was a guy from the future, but the king did not believe him because all he could see was So Yong. As the drama progressed, the king only started to really pay attention to So Yong when Bong Hwan told him about the future and explained the parts of democracy. The king realized then that the queen and him shared the same goal. He also learned that the queen was the one who saved him from the well. As Bong Hwan slowly completed his mission throughout the drama, So Yong's personality slowly started to come through. Once the king was ready to fully listen to the queen and accepted her for who she was, was Bong Hwan able to go back to his time.

At the end the king and queen run around trying to find each other. By this time, Bong Hwan had disappeared, but it's okay because he had completed his mission. He had changed the future for all of them. The king now loved the queen for who she was and they began a new life in making the country a democracy. The queen could now express herself as a girl even though she had boy behavior, ideology, and beliefs. Bong Hwan learned to treat women better and went home to hero's welcome.

If you look at it in the bigger picture as you say, then you have missed the point of the two queen scenes at the end. Bong Hwan has definitely rubbed off on the queen. She now curses and enjoys expressing herself differently than what she did before. She is now acting like her true self, and the king is in love with that girl, not Bong Hwan. When the king says, "it feels like something is missing," I interpret that as he finally realizes that his queen was telling the truth about her being a different person. However, he is not concerned with it because his queen is now his ally and is able to act like her true self, a girl in a boy's body.

Thank you for the discussion and your interpretation of events in the story. I still think, everyone gets their happy ending. Hope this helps.