jpny01

That wasn't bad, but it's not great. The idea is good, but the plot is a tad too riduclous, and the contrast with the authenticity in Bite Me is rather stark. I actually didn't love Jang Eui Soo's performance, although I love looking at him. It was just too artificially cocky and too over the top. The apron scene would have led to a fistfight in real life. I hope it gets a little more plausible. Any self-respecting person would immediately look for new work after being baldly lied to like that. And can we just once have a non-female villain?

Anyway, there was nothing in this that would make me want to drop it - certainly not all the nonsense about JES. That's what people mean when they condemn "cancel culture". Get real. There are people who want to strip gays of basic human rights - let's not attack someone who's been happy to preform in several BLs - including one of the best. I was just watching WYEL, and he seriously committed to that.

They are the same characters, written, directed, and produced by identically the same people. Does that make a difference? It happened, and part of that scene was flashed back to in Ep 0. The Fiat in Don't Say Know has abduction and torture by Leo in his past.

You don't seem angry at all, just direct and to the point. I agree with much of what you wrote, but I think there may be some different definitions of "fetishization." You are defining it as as a specific thing needed for sexual gratification, which is not wrong, but I mean, and I thought other people meant, "a subject of unreasonable, irrational, and/or excessive devotion". Maybe people mean what you mean, or just as likely, people heard that said somewhere and don't really know what they mean but it sounded good.

I have no argument about the origins of Beauty and the Beast - the original is even worse than you're describing - and goes all the way back to Cupid & Psyche - but does that mean that a more positive twist on it is disqualified? There was a genre called the "rescue opera" which has found its way into cinema, wherein the damsel is abducted and the hero has to go rescue her. Beethoven wrote Fidelio, in which a man is abducted and his wife has to go rescue him. It's fairly incredible and gender bending for something written in 1805 - but is it disqualified because it's based on a misogynist trope even though it totally upsets and subverts that trope? On the other hand, I'm not sure Beethoven is really comparable to a Disney film.

I have to agree with your first paragraph - but I would add it has to be a two-way street. I don't think anyone can claim gay men haven't been just as oppressed as women. It's improving faster for gay men than it is for women, largely because of women, but historically it's been pretty grim and is still pretty bad.

If people are going as far as you're saying, I agree with you. My only point is that there are people who have to trot in whenever the boys in BL are stripped of sexuality and pronounce "SEE?!? We don't need steamy sex scenes to have a good romance!!!" They want to desex men and leave only cute boys being cute to each other. Gay men have had to hide who they are - the biggest difference between homophobia and misogyny - so desexing men in love is slamming the closet door in their faces and is inherently homophobic. That's what I mean by fetishization. But you're probably right that that's not what other people mean.

As for yaoi, lack of consent is an endemic quality of the genre, and it's rooted in the idea that it's unacceptable for a man to seek and enjoy bottoming, and so has to be forced or coerced. It's an exact analogue to straight dramas where the same phenomenon is in play for women, who can't be seen seeking sexual pleasure unless they're bad (i.e. sexually "loose") women, who have to die or at least suffer some sort of punishment. Like in horror movies - a woman is safe from death as long as she stays chaste. So in BL and much straight drama, sexual assault and even rape is morally prefable to a man or woman seeking penetration for pleasure.

That's why to me BL is not only homophobic, it's misogynist, since the uke is just a boy dropped in the woman's slot with no modification. He/she is useless and weak and needs a real man to take care of him/her.

You're right about Love Simon. The age group it's aimed at doesn't really allow for a ton of sex, but the treatment of Ethan is bad - I forgot about that or blocked it out. But that's still not as bad as BL where in almost every series there are pathetic trans or effeminate gay characters screeching and pawing at every half-attractive man that enters their line of sight.

A drag queen is a man dressed as a woman. That's already a violation of gender norms - there is nothing heteronormative about them. They are never submissive to men, they do not seek marriage, and they are not appropriating anyone's body. A drag queen is celebrating the Diva archetype without relying on sexuality - she can't because she's neither a real woman or sexually alluring - she's demanding only respect. That's why they're important. "I'm not nbehaving the way you say I have to behave and you're going to show me respect anyway." Is a drag king objectionable? There's a difference because of the societal power imbalance, but is a woman appropriating a man's body when she's performing thusly?

But in the end, your main point is inarguable that the only path foward is educating the audience. I suppose it's progress that BL is popular at all - hopefully over time it will improve its representation of both women and gay men. Societal acceptance is progressing rapidly in Asia, and I don't think it's out of the question to credit BL audiences with some of that progress. And really, the funding of these series are controlled by men, who are going to make conservative decisions based on what has worked in the past, just as Hollywood does. Hence the presence of f@$#ing engineers in every f@$#ing BL.

Thanks - much appreciated!

Thank you! It's kind of you to say so.

I go back and forth on this - is it the production or the actor? But Earth and Mix in 1,000 Stars didn't have much in the way of love scenes but when they did touch, it felt like they were into each other. Or in 7 Project, when Santa hugs Earth, he presses their bodies together and I think that makes it feel real - I actually gasped when he did that. I felt it.

I think it's probably both actor discomfort and directing. A good director can get a lot out of an actor, and an actor has to commit to a role. Smart and James are less experienced than Ja or First, but blew them away in terms of physical chemistry, even though James' character was standoffish.

Thank you! I feel like I need to try to entertain in exchange for you putting up with my rambling.

OK, this is well reasoned and I take some of these points, but you're making a lot of assumptions about people's motivations, to the point it comes off as a little anti-gay-male. You're right - men using female terms CAN perpetuate misogynist tropes, but that doesn't mean that they all ARE. (Sorry for the caps - there's no "italics" button). Among gay men, they are not aimed at the "small" "weak" men, it's equal opportunity. Don't confuse BL, which is written by people who clearly have no real LGBTQ+ exposure, with actual LGBTQ+ people.

I'm confused by your characterization of drag queens, which is to me 180 degrees from the reality. Drag queens are performers, portrating an OTT feminine persona that is as far away from weak as you can possibly get. A drag queen is a force that you Do Not Mess With. Drag queens are and have always been at the forefront of the fight for LGBTQ+ rights and especially early on were the driving force.

You can find extreme examples of anything you want to on the internet. The fact is that almost no gay men would ever use the term shitoris, and anyone that did would be regarded as ridiculous and offensive. That's not to say there aren't gay male idiots.

I said Mpreg CAN be OK, not that it usually is. I have seen several very good uses in films that critique aspects of society. When it's just there for weird titilation, yes, it's bad.

I've never heard of g0y and I'm a gay man in his fifites. Isn't it disriminatory to characterize an entire group of people based on some small extremist movement? It's like saying "all white people are Nazis". They don't even identify as LGBTQ+.

I meant that BL is the most misogynist LGBTQ+-themed media. Obviously there is far more misogynist media, but Asian BL is particularly bad with it's fem-shaming, relentless use of petty evil female characters, and the uke phenomenon which is a grotesque throwback to Victorian stereotypes of women as uselss fragile things that need a man to take care of them. You will never find such a thing normalized in Western LGBTQ+ media.

"Lack of stomachable representation" is a bit of a dodge. What specifically are you thinking about? What is unstomachable for example, about Love, Simon?

Your straight media DIsney examples, while totally valid, are about movies made 60+ years ago. Cinderella aired in 1950, 72 years ago. Everything was misoynist then - can we stick to modernity? In Enchanted, the latest Disney Cindarella story (2007), the prince is a useless narcissistic idiot and Cindarella rescues the male lead from the dragon not with her inner purity but with a sword. The villainess is still an evil stepmother, but is a parody of the trope.

Even Beauty and the Beast - that's a remarkable spin on a story about a woman who refuses to marry because she's more interested in knowledge and adventure, and the plot revolves around a reversal of the damsel in distress trope as it is she who has to go rescue a man - and later she saves the Beast - and they do not marry, they dance as equals. And incidentally it's a powerful woman who justly punishes the prince for his cruelty and selfishness. I haven't seen the Little Mermaid, so I can't comment, but I'll take your word for it as it's hard to imagine anything with a mermaid having any positive representation.

There's enough misogyny in the world to fight without finding it where it's not and attacking allies. If a gay man says something you find stupid and offensive, tell him, and 99 out of 100 times he'll see your point, apologize, and stop doing it. But on that topic, you are criticizing almost everything as misogynist while saying it's OK to fetishize gay men. Why is that different? Would it be OK if black people started enslaving white people? It might feel satisfying in some cases but it would still be wrong.

I'm not angry if my tone sounds like it - I found your post thought-provoking and I had to reflect to understand where I agree and disagree with you.

Well, there's still the "Special Episode". I'm sure everything will work out. Everything worked out for Lhong in TT, right? :)

Me too - but this was trying to be outrageous and conventional at the same time and failed at both.

Yes - James is cute, but Smart has "it", and looks matter in his career field.

I'm happy if I could be of any help. I just watched the final episode and it only reinforced my feelings about the above - Leo has a line that's pure psychopath and the resolution of the Leon/Pob storyline is not at all surprising.

It might as well be - I feel like I paid enough to watch the series.

I don't think anyone is surprised so much as irrationally holding onto the hope that it wouldn't end that way.

Well, Tharn never kidnapped Type and tortured him, so I'm not sure that's way less toxic than TT. I'd rather have a surprise blowjob in the shower than be kidnapped and tortured.

You should probably put that under spoiler. On the other hand, if anyone thought that would have a happy ending, they've never seen a Mame project.

I would add James. His performance was understated, but that's hard to do well.

"Top notch" is a bit strong, but definitely impressive for a first-timer - everything about him was impressive for a first-timer. But I thought James was even better.

Buy if you're talking about Leon and Pob, then of course they don't end up together.

Well, Mame topped herself with this one. I would call it a trainwreck, but then trainwrecks would say, "we're not THAT bad."

Have you ever tried to travel to a Third World country with one week's notice? Could you manage it in a week? How about if it was such a disastrous place that they need recent college grad volunteers so badly that they ask for them with only a week's notice?