reefpicker

OK. I am going to have a slightly different take on this show from the previous comments. Before I say anything, let me point out that while Gameboys has much better production values and it has more comments in the mydramalist boards, it has less views than Sakristan Episode 1. I don't know why but I thought I had point that out.

Anyway, Sakristan feels more like an independent movie that someone turned into a series. It has a strong LGBQT film vibe but at the same time it has a BL-like dynamic in the chemistry of the two leads.

This episode was worst than the first episode but the acting was a little better. Folks on youtube have commented that the episode was a good depiction of Pinoy school life, so perhaps we need to be careful how we judge the episode in that sense.

The editing was rough. The "music video" style of editing for the talent show was unnecessary and look VERY amateurish. I didn't watch it a second time but I had no idea were Zach went and it confused me what group he belonged to....

Now the good.... I think the last two minutes were pure gold. The scene on the stairs... Clifford is not just a little cute doing that dance, he is SUPER MEGA ADORABLE. It is funny and I had a smile on my face the entire time. I am not sure I got why the fact that he memorized the song but not the capitals was a good thing but whatever, it was super cute. And the chemistry with Henry was great. I wish the show had more scenes like that!

Overall, I hope they find a way to make this work. The two leads are decent and I would like to see them do well. This could be like lovesick, maybe the show will find its groove after the first couple of episodes. I think we need a linear story instead of these snippets, which make the show feel more like a movie than a series. I feel I am watching a bunch of scenes from a movie put together haphazardly.

First episode: 7.5/10
Second Episode: 6/10

Again, I hope to see the reverse of this trend!

no way ever for me to know that ;)

I learn something new every day.

I think you keep circling back to a couple of things which I find interesting and may be the difference in our viewpoint....

You keep talking about BL from different countries. Once I read your first post (or was it someone else), I said, OK, let us circumscribe this discussion to Thai BL only. I have more experience with Thai BL than with Japanese BL. I have no experience with Vietnamese BL or what Chinese call BL.

We should also admit that if anything your examples serve to illustrate the need to define BL. It is a mess, as you point out.

I am sorry but I may not have (yet) watched LBC but I have watched TT, and I would not say that Mame is a good writer when it comes to talking about LGBQT issues. Almost everyone I have heard talk about LBC have said that it is a fairy tale.... (with the typical mame stuff, like rape :O )

DBK is IMO not a great showcase of LGBQT struggles. It is a rosy depiction of LGBQT struggles just like all of the Thai BLs I have watched. (Knowing what I know about Japanese TV and cinema I will believe you 100% if you counter that Japanese BL is more realistic).

Thanks however for making me think about this issue as I struggle to put my thoughts in writing for my blog :)

I watched both. Thematically, they are Thai BLs, with strong Lakorn underpinnings. However, both have some realistic elements about LGBQT life. They are ELEMENTS and not relevant to the main plot or thrust of the story.

In HCTM, the coming out scene was beautifully acted and directed. This is my favorite coming out scene. The greatness is not in the writing but in the acting by Ohm Pawat.

In DBK, it comes from the fact that characters in the show talk about being gay, getting married, etc.

This represents an evolution in Thai BL but it does not change the general feel of a BL series and does not change my definition of Thai BL.

I don't agree with this either because right now, folks are debating if The Shipper is a BL so there is a need to define what is a BL so that production companies can better market their products. The Shipper is not getting a lot of views because folks do not consider it a BL even after GMMTV has market it as a BL

Thanks. You seem to have a similar viewpoint as I do... :)

Well, I can't find any evidence that he was arrested nor that he admitted to having a relationship with a minor for 7 years. Besides, being arrested says nothing. You have to be found guilty.

All I see is people saying he did or said this or that.

So yes, stop the accusations. Let's accuse and try people in a court of law not in the court of public opinion.

If you are going to post this type of accusations BACK THEM UP WITH EVIDENCE and don't make people go looking for it. Make your case.

Thus far you fail to make your case.

You have almost the same exact POV as I did.

I found the dialogue corny but not terrible.

Gameboys has better acting and is just better in terms of production.

The rawness of the acting here made it better because it reminded me of Lovesick or Make it Right.

Could we stop accusing folks of things that have not been proven in court?

If and when he is found guilty by a court of law, then we can talk about this, otherwise it is as good as a rumor.

Also, keep in mind that you are not only boycotting Yap but his entire crew, including the actors and artists who work hard to make this series a reality.

I agree there is no right or wrong but I also think it is interesting for me to learn how you and others see this issue.

I think the "real" part, at least what I keep talking about and I think Salty bae is, doesn't refer to fiction vs. realism but the fact that when novels are written by women about homosexual man, they are not experiential. I don't know much about Japanese BL, but I see a lot in common between Japanese Shoju manga live action adaptations and Thai BL and I think it is because both are written mostly by women for women. Thai BL definitively has some connections to Shoju manga (or at least they have some roots in common!).

I didn't say that coming out has to be present in every LGBQT show, at least I hope I didn't make you think I said that. What I said is that coming out and other such personal experiences are central to most LGBQT stories.

I think a good show that straddles this boundary is Sakristan. We will see where it is headed but right now it is the only "BL" show I have seen that integrates elements of both BL and what to me is just regular, run of the mill, LGBQT shows. I don't know who wrote it but I am willing to bet it was not written by a straight women.

There is a new BL (at least at present it is categorized as such) that is coming out in Thailand this year. It is titled My ride, and it was written by a gay man. I am currently reading the book. I am on the first chapter. I don't get a BL vibe at all from it. I can tell you more after I finish. What I have learned from this is that the biggest and most important difference between LGBQT mainstream dramas and movies and BL is who the author is and their relationship to the LGBQT community.

As you said, no one has defined what BL is but as it evolves I think we will need to narrow its definition and to define new terms for all the sub-genres within BL.

You never told me why you don't like Psychomilk.???

I think I like my definition of BL and I will stick with it for now. No one has set out to define it in stone yet, at least not from what I have researched. I cited 3 sources who pretty much share my view of what BL means.

From what I read, your argument is coming mostly from an understanding of Japanese BL in manga form and live action adaptation in Japan. Japan has BL, Yaoi, Bara, etc. I don't even think they know where the lines are for any of all those different types of gay genres, if they can even be called that.

My definition of BL is only for live action. I don't read mangas. I have 0 experience with that part of BL and I can't imagine trying to box the very diverse genera of yaoi, bara, shonuen, etc into an all-inclusive definition. Thai BL is distinct from Japanese BL and again my definition is more applicable to Thai BL. I believe that the new wave of Pinoy BL will take from Thai BL.

I do strongly disagree that LGBQT works overlap with BLs. I do think that we are headed in that direction but we are very far away at the moment. For me to label a work TRUE LGBQT, I would have to consider the queer identity of the author. I don't think that BL in Thailand would qualify at the moment as it is almost exclusively written by woman. (Again see my very long post about why that type of BL is most definitively not LGBQT).

We can agree to disagree. I think you have a different perspective than mine.

I think either I confuse you or you got confused by all my postings IDK LOL

WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD :) Thanks for reading it (if you do read the whole thing!)

I am writing a blog post for my own website which is still in the works so here it is... (This is a draft!)

BL vs. LGBQT: What is the difference?

Too often, I hear people say that Brokeback Mountain is a good BL. There are of course, too many things wrong with that statement, but here I will only focus on one. Brokeback Mountain is a [terrible] LGBQT movie, not a BL. But what is the difference? If I only had two or three sentences to tell you what the difference is, I would say that BL is a utopia while LGBQT shows present you with the reality of gay life. BL focuses on the romance, while LGBQT shows focus on queer identity or issues relating to queer life.

Most modern Thai-BL series are LGBQT shows but not all Thai BL shows are queer-conscious shows. BL shows in general are not always told from the perspective of a queer person. Instead, BL series and movies present an idealized, imaginary version of queer romance. The majority of BL novels, which form the basis of most BL series in Asia, are written by straight women. Thus, BL is not an experiential account of queer life. Instead, it is a third-person perspective on queer life, often based on stereotypes and presenting a fictionalized narrative about homosexual romance. While this is problematic, it also represents a unique opportunity as most women who write BL fiction seem to reimagine queer life in a way that is devoid of many of the tropes that have plagued Western queer cinema, such as tragic endings, parental interference, unrequited love, bisexual love triangles, etc. Often in Thai BL, the friends of the protagonist are very accepting of homosexual couples and parents are either blasé or nonchalant and may often be openly accepting with very little conflict experienced by the protagonist.
In LGQBT cinema, the gay identity is a central and defining element of the characters. We often hear a character say “I am gay” or we may see a character struggle with finding his or her sexual identity. A whole movie can be about a character’s inner journey to find their true identity or a character can find love in the course of finding his or her identity. Regardless, the central element of the plot is the character’s journey to find and accept his or her queerness.

In true BL, the characters rarely question their sexuality, and are sometimes portrayed to be gay just for the particular person they have a romantic attraction. If a character questions their identity, it is almost as an afterthought and most of the time their friends or family don’t question their sexuality. The central element is not the sexual identity but the romantic relationship between the characters.

Thus, BL is not always LGQBT. By the same token, most LGQBT films and shows in the West and in Europe would not qualify as BL. First, central to a BL is the fact that it deals with boys, teenagers or young adults who are starting to develop intimate relationships. Second, Asian BLs have for the most part stayed true to the Samurai-era ideal of youth and beauty: you will rarely see a BL in Asia featuring a young man with a mustache, or say an overly muscular man (OK, there are exceptions!). Finally, Asian BLs do not tell queer stories, but use queerness as a backdrop for a romantic story. As mentioned above, queer identity is not central to the characters. Most traditional Western LGBQT movies and shows do not fit the above criteria.

Why do you think Psychomilk is "terrible"?

I am sticking to my guns. I see your point but I don't see how I can't define BL in a more restrictive way. It matters very little what BL (eg. Y fiction) is in Thailand. We, as English speakers, can define the term to mean something very specific and I think whether consciously or unconsciously there is a consensus of what BL means and what it does not and for us calling Brokeback Mountain a BL or calling Milk a BL is just not something that makes sense IMO.

https://www.esquiremag.ph/culture/movies-and-tv/why-thai-bl-series-popular-in-the-philippines-a2298-20200427-lfrm

https://blog.gaijinpot.com/the-popularity-of-gay-manga-in-japan-what-are-bara-and-yaoi-and-who-are-its-fans/

https://psycho-milk.com/2020/05/22/gameboys-the-series-2020/

That last one pretty much repeats what I said and keep in mind that the lead editor is from the Philippines :)

Which shows are we talking about?

I disagree. BL is a sub-genre of LGBQT cinema, which in turn is a genre of fiction. I made a case above for why these genres are different, how they have a different flavor, etc. It does not matter what folks call it in Asia, as these are just translations (Y is translated to BL for example). Even in Thailand Y shows are a specific genera of shows....

You could make a valid case that what I refer to is Thai BL, which is fine, but there is currently a difference between Thai BL and American LGBQT shows. Heck, even Japanese BL/Yaoi is very different from Thai BL. Thailand is setting the standard for what is BL. Thus, there is a case to be made that Thailand is redefining what is BL even now as we speak and new shows air and new shows are being produced.

As a BL fan I can tell you that I do not see the same thing in Brokeback Mountain as I see in Lovesick or TharnType. They are very different to me.

I think we can define it however we want outside of Japan. It is possible that LGBQT shows in Japan are historically tied to BL and this is why they refer to them as BL.

BL is an evolving genera, and its definition will certainly change with time. We need to define it because using it as a synonym for LGBQT shows is in my humble opinion, a mistake. I have many friends who love traditional LGBQT shows and movies but will never watch a Thai BL show or a Japanese Yaoi live action adaptation. There is a need to set a boundary around these two very different genres or otherwise you will confuse outsiders.

interesting. I didn't notice it here or in 3 will be free as much (maybe a little) but it was very obvious in Theory of Love. They use color very well....

Glad you asked. It is a good question.

In true BL, you get that fantasy element of "everyone can be gay". Also, in true BL, the focus of the story is not coming out or the difficulties of being gay, but the actual romance.

The aim is not really the difference. And a few BL have been written by man, so it is really more about that gay utopia than anything else.

In this show, neither character asked if the other was gay, and neither of these two had any reason to think (as far as we know) the other was into men. So it is a utopia: anyone can be gay. :)

I hope that was a good explanation.

First episode was pretty good. Kokoy is a great actor and a handsome man. Elijah is a good actor with a very cute face. I loved that this is not just another LGBQT show but an actual BL.

My only concern is, what happens if they don't meet? How would I feel about it?

I guess I will have to wait to the end to see...

Looking forward to episode 2.