PrettyCarEye

I wasn't insulting you. Just stating a fact. The movie is really not made for casual moviegoers, which is why so many 'lay viewers' rated the movie poorly while it is highly praised among professional film communities worldwide.

There are so many artistic subtleties in the movie that only someone with a trained eye will recognize them and understand the brilliance of the filmmaker to bring them to life on screen.

Another virtue of the film is that it's not your usual run of the mill mystery thriller that keeps you in a constant state of excitement at the edge of your seat. This is a bonafide, real life mystery. If you watch a lot of true crime stories as much as I do, you'd recognize that most real life mysteries play out exactly like this movie. The police do not have and will never have all the answers when they try to solve a case.

Watching this movie, you kind of become a real life detective trying to unravel a truly puzzling whodunit. You really have to engage your brain power to form any sort of conclusion as to what really happened, what's really going on. And even then, you find possible answers to some questions, but others remain unanswered. And at the end of it all, you can only come up with a theory of the crime - the best conclusion you can draw based on the facts as you know them ... which may be a lot or none at all.

If you're not involved in the film industry yourself, it's not always easy to appreciate how difficult & complicated making a movie is. It's not easy to make a decent movie, much an excellent one. So when a movie manages to be artistic AND engages the viewer on a deeper intellectual level at the same time, that's a huge achievement. And *that* is why it deserves praise.

Nothing is wrong with being a casual viewer, but you guys tend to watch movies just for fun. You want to be thrilled and excited ... I get it, because I do too. But for those of us who love cinema, what's fun & entertaining for us, in addition to the chills & thrills, is also how artful & intelligent a film is. That's the entertaining factor for us.

Anyway, for my full analysis of the film, read all my comments to @realdeal above.

I definitely think you should see the movie again with ENG subs. Probably won't change your perception much, but may give you some deeper insight into the characters.

Dropping dramas has never come easy to me because I like to finish what I start and I always hope things will get better towards the end of a show. I've gotten better at dropping in recent years, though, cause I don't have the time to stick it out with dramas that aren't pulling their weight anymore. Life is too hectic, and there's almost never enough hours in a day to get everything done.

With respect, you don't know what you're talking about. This movie is not for the casual viewer. If you understood the intricacies of arthouse cinema, there's no way you could have said such a thing.

Yes, I'm here for all of this! He got mad swag too! I just love him!!!

Sex on legs! Sængil Chukæyo, oppa! Saranghæyo! <3
Please do a new drama soon, and make it good so I can watch it!

The current synopsis of the movie above is a HUGE spoiler!!! I've submitted an edit, but in the meantime anyone interested in watching this movie should NOT read it. Who the heck writes these things?!?

Was kinda disappointed with Koreeda's last two films - The Third Murder (bored me to death) & Our Little Sister - but loved this one! The Oscar will probably go to Roma, because of it's 'closeness' to the American experience, but I'd be so stoked if Shoplifters win! Kinda bummed too that Burning wasn't nominated.

Koreans hate killing off women and children. Only men are expected to sacrifice themselves or die. Watch a few more of these thrillers and you'll definitely see a pattern.

So now you're coming for me because I demonstrate proper writing skills (unlike the big blocks of barely legible text you write) and because I exercise *independent* thinking instead of rabid bandwagonism. Because I exercise independent thinking, I must be under the control of the patriarchy. Keep putting your ignorance on display.

Where I come from, and in many other countries too, you can rent a car (though your insurance premiums are higher), vote, buy cigarettes, take out a bank loan (as long as you have a full time job), marry without parental consent and have surgeries in random countries if you so choose, at 19 yrs old. Why? Because you are an ADULT. Only thing you can't do is drink because unlike the other stuff, alcohol can and does severely impair judgement. So dunno where you come from, but there you go. Stop expecting everyone everywhere to be like you, think like you.

Furthermore, when it comes to the science behind sex development you're comparing apples to oranges. The brains of ALL youth are still developing until their mid to late 20s, but cognitively and behaviourally girls and young women develop a little faster than boys and young men. This has been *proven* and backed up by various validating studies, more so than the opposite. Maturity evens out and become more 'equal' between the sexes from around 40 yrs and up. So go do some more research, young woman. You clearly have a lot left to learn. Your quick little google search answers ain't cutting it.

As part of my job scientific journals on a number of topics is required reading. How many have you read? At least my 'bias bs' is actually based on something. What is *your* bias bs based on? Your morality? Your morality isn't science, honey.

Very well said. I wholeheartedly agree with every word.

"I think most people are talking about the age gap just because they don't like the male actor's appearance!! If he was someone they found fatally attractive I bet they wouldn't mind it!"

This right here is the death knell for many of the hypocrites commenting on here about the age gap. I've said the exact same thing in my exchanges with a few of them! Encounter just wrapped. 12 yr age gap there too. Nobody called Song Hye Kyo out of her name for doing a drama with a kid 12 yrs her junior, who barely grows any facial hair. Yet they squeal and jubel over this and other dramas like it (Secret Love Affair, Witch's Romance, Chikagusi Nikki) because .... omg, omg, omg, omg oppa sooooooo HAWWWWT!!! :/

Or how about Goblin, in which Gong Yoo plays a 939 yr old immortal who falls in love with a 19 yr old student??? Even in real life Gong Yoo has 10 or 11 yrs on the actress. But Goblin has a solid 9 rating & glowing reviews and comments, cuz you know ... he's hot!!! Now I love me some Gong Yoo, but the premise of that drama is so creeping me out that I'm barely getting through it. Yet people keep telling me "I'd feel the same way if the genders were reserved or if the ML wasn't hot" ... as if they think I was born behind a damn cow.

It's totally fine if you find this drama & this relationship disturbing and pleasant, that is certainly your prerogative & I really could not care less. However, your personal opinion was not the point of discussion. The hypocrisy of the outrage surrounding the age gap was. Interesting how you completely flipped the script once again in an effort to make yourself the victim. Your lopsided logic is rather cute, really. Let me 'wrongly' quote you some more:

"Stop pulling stuff out your ass" - er, I didn't. Toxic feminism/femininity is a REAL condition, just as its counterpart, toxic masculinity.

"You insult & tear down other people for having a different opinion!" - er, no, I call people out on their own hypocrisy and it makes y'all mad. Which is why I went on to say your comments were dumb, which they were, because instead of addressing my talking points, you play the victim & try to deflect away from the real topic of discussion.

"You need to calm down & move on with your life! Stop getting so heated on a k-drama forum." - er, YOU responded to *my* comment and accused me of pulling provable facts out of my ass AND you keep responding to me. So who needs to calm down & who needs to get on with their life? I never sought you out. Moreover, the whole point of this platform is to encourage discussion and debate about k-dramas! That's what the developers intended and that's how they make their money, by keeping people engaged on their site for as long as possible. So this little exchange ...? Exactly what they want! I mean, for somebody so smart I thought you'd have figured that out.

See, this is the problem when people try to debate other people that's above their level. You resort to ad hominem attacks or play the victim. Next time it's better if you wait til I send for you before you try coming for me. OK?

Yes, Ceki, I do find it odd (and I did thoroughly read all your posts) that you find yourself on this drama page, throwing a tantrum about this couple, but somehow you didn't find yourself on those noona romance pages with the massive age gaps. I can not see from your list that you're watching Clean With Passion, so just like me you probably ended up here because the drama is prominently featured on the front page or mentioned on the forums or whatever.

You say your opinion is the same regardless of gender, but I'm not so interested in what people say. The mouth, after all, was made to talk. I'm more interested in what they do. I checked those pages, Ceki. Not one post from you opposing these couples or calling to task the endless flow of comments singing the praises of these dramas.

I even remember when Secret Love Affair, Witch's Romance, Encounter etc came out. They were super popular dramas on this site (as are all noona romances - this place is noona romance central, literally!). They dominated the home page and received countless glowing reviews. How did you manage not to leave even one comment? You've been on this site just as long or even longer than me. I know because I've seen your nick around in the all the years I've been on here, even though we never interacted until now. There is no way you could have missed the hoopla that surrounded those dramas.

So, yeah, I do find it very curious that you never clicked in on those pages and left a comment or 10 about how problematic the age between a woman and a man who could be her son, both in the drama and in real life, is. Very curious.

I'm not sure where in the world you come from or are located, but where I come from 19 and 25 yr olds - a 6 yr gap - are NOT that different. Seriously. The world of difference you talk about, I don't see that. Six years is a typical gap for siblings, you're still playmates with a 6 yr gap. So whatever your 'normal' is, it sure ain't my normal, or that of millions of people around the world.

I know in Asia women are infantilized and expected to act childish, innocent and cute ... even when they're grown adults, which is probably why so many people on this site find it so scandalous that a 19 yr old can engage in sexual relations with a man who's 12 yrs older than her. But where I come from it's not uncommon to see 19 yr olds who are married with families of their own. Sure, they're often married with young man around their own age (19 - 25), but there are also many who are involved with much older men too. Nobody condemns the man for that because both are of legal age. So maybe culture is playing a role in how we perceive relationships like these.

I stand corrected on which generation she belongs to. However, I still don't see it as there being a generational gap because he's not old enough to be her father. Moreover, they both came of age in the same era - the digital era, which started in the late 90s until now. So just because he's older, doesn't mean he's that much more mature than her or completely from another time to which she couldn't possibly relate. They're 12 yrs apart, not 22 yrs apart. You guys really need to calm the heck down.

As far as girls maturing faster than boys, you really shouldn't speak on things you clearly know nothing about. It makes you sound ignorant. I'm not going to do your homework for you on this. There is sufficient scientific proof that's widely available to educate yourself. Go look them up. And go look up the word 'misogynistic' while you're at it. Just because you don't agree with facts, that doesn't make them 'misogynistic'. This is the kind of toxic feminist rhetoric that makes it difficult for me to take people like you seriously. Because anything that you don't perceive as favourable toward women is automatically labeled 'misogyny'. Give me a break ... please. :/

As for the rest, that's your opinion and you're entitled it. I'm not forcing you to go have a relationship with a 31 yr man if that isn't your thing. However, like I've said to others in this debate, keep your morality out of other people's business. Just because something is morally wrong for you, doesn't mean it should be automatically wrong for everyone else.

As a 19 yr old you're officially & legally an adult, therefore if a 31 yr old enters into a relationship with you, I won't condemn & attempt to ostracize him for that. There are more important causes to concern myself with than what two consenting adults are doing in their private lives.

You sound so illiterate and dumb that I don't even know why I'm wasting my time responding to you, but I'm going to say this:

I'm not married. I'm not watching this drama and have no interest in watching this drama. I don't and have never dated a younger man so I don't know how in the world I could be a 'cougar'. Please go and pick fights with someone that's on your level. Because I'll dog walk your ass if you try coming for me when I didn't send for you. Ok? Ok.

Yes, 19 is still quite young, but it's problematic for you & others to be equating a 19 yr old with a younger teenager (14, 15, 16). A 19 yr old is either already working to make a living or in college. They are young adults who are expected to take on the responsibilities of adult life - be independent, take care of themselves, plan for their future. Having relationships is a part of that process.

As for your comment about generational gap, no, there isn't a general gap. It's not like ML is a baby boomer and she's a millennial. They are both millennials. Heck, I'm a few years above 31 and *I* am still considered a millennial! Despite the 12 yrs he has on her, their interests, as it relates to the current world, is very UNlikely to be that much different because they both came of age *in the same era*. So, no, no generational gap.

Like I've said before age gaps, for me, become problematic when there is a REAL generational gap, when a baby boomer gets involved with a millennial, for eg. Secret Love Affair, 19 - 20 yr age gap!!! She's old enough to be his damn mother. I didn't see you on that page raising hell, Ceki. Witch's Romance, I think the actress is 15 years older than the male lead. Borderline cradle robbery. And they're countless other shows like these. But you guys only go after the ahjussis, why? I think you should reflect on that, even while I'll conclude this discussion by saying, we can agree to disagree as far as this topic is concerned and leave it at that.

I'm just not understanding your logic because you seem to be hung up on the fact that she's 19 and just out of high school.
But would you have been less creeped out if she were 25 and he 37 (still a 12 yr age gap)? I can't see how you would, because if your argument is that she's too immature at 19, whilst he's 31 ... even at 25 she'd still be more immature than him at 37 because that 12 yr gap is still there, regardless of the fact that they're both older. So six of one, half a dozen of the other?

I simply believe this mentality of yours is steeped in prejudice against men. I truly do. That's my opinion, but there are facts to back my opinion. Just as men can be prejudiced against women, the opposite can and is also be very true. That's the difference between my mindset and yours. When it comes to gender issues, I don't take sides. Because I know men & women experience a lot of the same emotions & suffer from the same biases. It's human nature. I, therefore, look at facts (rather than a person's gender), apply rational (as opposed to emotional) thinking, then draw a conclusion.

Would I personally date a 19 yr old male at any age? No. Would I encourage my friends or family members to date a 19 yr old if they're 12 yrs older? Probably not, but I wouldn't judge or condemn them if they did because I don't view 19 yr olds as children or someone so immature that they can't handle adult relationships.

When I was in college I did have a 19 yr old aggressively pursue me (I was in my mid 20s), but I said no. Not because I was morally opposed to the idea. I simply have no attraction to younger men. I can see a younger man and think he's beautiful/sexy, but I have no desire to enter into a relationship with him. I've always preferred older men and all my relationships have been with older men (my personal limit is 10 yrs older, but I wouldn't oppose to 12 yrs. Probably wouldn't go beyond that, however).

It's for this very reason why I stay clear of noona romances, because I just can't relate to the appeal of dating younger men. For me, if we're going to use maturity to argue against age gap relationships ... I'd say its more appropriate to noona romances because men mature much *slower* than women. There are often stark cognitive & behavioural differences between a 19 yr old young man and a 19 yr old young woman. And the bigger the age gap, like in Secret Love Affair & Witch's Romance ... the more baffled I become as to why women think this is a good idea, but I don't condemn them. To each their own.

I'll freely admit that I had a problem with Chugakusei Nikki when I first heard about it. In general, I tend to avoid shows like this because a teacher engaging in any sort of inappropriate relationship (even if there's no sexual contact) with a student is an abuse of their power position. But with that said, I can suspend belief and overlook the uneven power dynamic and enjoy such a show anyway. I have done so before. What tends to irk me the most, though, is again the hypocrisy in viewers on MDL. They condone inappropriate behaviour from women, but criminalize the same behaviour in men.

In real life, esp in the US, you constantly hear of female teachers engaging in sexual relations with their students, some as young as 13, 14. People say "Oh it's not a problem because young boys just want to score!" But nobody thinks about the *proven* long term psychological effects such relationships have on young boys, many of whom grow up not knowing how to set healthy sexual boundaries for themselves, disrespecting women and so on. Notorious pedophile, Mary K. Latourneau, said that 12 yr Villi Faulau was the 'boss' in their relationship when they first got together. She was a married woman with 2 children, in her mid 30s at the time, but a 12 yr was the boss of her because he managed to strut like a man and pretend he was grown.

But let a 20 or 30 something man use the same excuse to have sex with an underage teenager, much less a 12 yr old. He's looking at widespread condemnation in the court of public opinion, potentially years in prison for statutory & child rape, and more than likely will have to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. Women who commit the same or similar crimes hardly ever get the same punishment or condemnation (esp if they're white). Heck, even in this drama ... the FL is of age. She is not a 'minor'. But look how people are carrying on. Some go as far as accusing the actor of being a pedophile. So when CN, and other dramas like it, come up, and I see people giving these women a pass & squealing how 'cute' the couple is ... the real life ramifications of such relationships if the older party is the man prevent me from not speaking out on said hypocrisy.

That's because my comments aren't for children. You need to go sit your ass over in that corner & keep quiet when grown folks are talking. You're on time out.

It's creepy in *your* opinion, which is fine. You're certainly entitled to that. But nobody is entitled to criminalize other people's behaviour when they aren't doing anything that's so morally corrupt and taboo that they deserve to be bashed from the high heavens. It's not pedophilia (not even close, regardless of your opinion. Don't take my word for it, go look up the definition yourself), it's not bestiality, it's not sexual assault. It's one young adult having a consensual, fictional relationship with a younger young adult.

I'm curious as to whether the reactions would have been so nasty and vitriolic if the ML in Clean With Passion was some baby faced idol (or if the roles were reversed). Somehow, I doubt the age gap would have been that big of a deal then, because awww .... oppa so cute! But an average looking guy with a dad bod gets trashed & labelled a pedophile. And then people try to tell me toxic femininity doesn't exist ... :/

For me personally, an age gap only becomes creepy if the older party is old enough to be the younger party's parent. That's where I personally draw the line. It's rare in most developed countries to hear of 31 yr olds having a 19 yr old child. And I don't see how 12 yrs represents a generational gap ... that's a bit of stretch. In MY opinion. You must be quite young yourself. That's why a 30 yr old may seem so ancient to you.