PrettyCarEye

Seem like you and me are running in the same heat. I haven't watched a drama for a while now. It's been mostly movies the last weeks. While some viewers combine movies & dramas effortlessly I seem to go for one or the other in spurts. Prior to Christmas my PTW became pregnant with films I wanted to watch, but had no interest to start. Now I can't seem to muster the interest to start a new drama. I guess I'm fed up with the usual predictability & silliness of most Asian dramas. I'm convinced they're making my brain rot! lol

Having said that they have this magnetic pull that make me realize I won't completely walk away. And every blue moon there's a good drama that doesn't totally insult your intelligence.

Speaking of which I wonder how you'd feel about Golden Empire? Have you seen it?

I used to be a big (romantic) erotica fan back in the day. Nowadays I seem to have lost the joy for reading. I haven't read a book in ages. Anyway, what erotica are you reading? Do you like BDSM? I may have some good recs if that's your cup of tea.

Ghettoe, what's happenin'? What you watching these days?

Hey, what's up? Long time no speak! How did you like the dramas / movies I rec'ed. Did you get around to watching any of them?

Ok, did NOT mean to imply that not accepting the plot at face value equals to not being intelligent ... not at all. I'm sorry if what I wrote came across that way.

My point is simply that acknowledging an audience may not be complete nitwits is a virtue of the craft. You don't have to spell everything out (which the writers did not do here) for people to get what you're trying to say. Creators can intend for us to see one thing & we end up seeing something completely different. That's simply the nature of art.

People can deduce things for themselves, which is why you & I arrived at completely different interpretations of the same character. They trusted us to evaluate & draw our own conclusions (independently of what they intended, though I continue to believe there was a great deal of the writer's subjectivity -- rather than staying true to the character -- in TJ's final choice).

Most people watch shows for escapism & fun. I do too, but I love it when said shows challenge me beyond just mindless entertainment.

It's important to note that ALL my interpretations were based on plot cues placed there BY the writers (and to an extent the actors too). I've given concrete examples ... which I did not make up. When I used terms such as 'I think' & 'I believe' it's not just based on my own subjective feeling, but on an objective overall evaluation of the facts (both stated & implied) as presented in the drama.

So no, not me wanting to become the writer or changing the scope of the story. I merely saw what was there to see, whether that was the intention of the creators or not. :)

You trippin', big time!
I LOVED Seung Won ahjussi in that show. He was the only reason I continued to watch it after the Hong Sisters usual shit starts to appear. And am sorry, uri dongsæng, but your boy Yoon was the annoying one! He kept turning up where he didn't belong, like a real pest. I wanted to swat him! lol

In that case we watch dramas differently, which is totally okay! :)

I don't see it as just 'their' plot & what they want us to see. My time is an investment. Therefore, if I choose your show above all else I expect writing that doesn't insult the intelligence of its viewers. Writing that's logical & rich with subtext, rather than spelling everything out. That's why I avoid writers like the Hong Sisters who often seem to take their viewers for complete idiots.

When it comes to GE I think the show excels in asking viewers, for the most part, to think beyond what meets the eye ... exactly because there was so much nuance to the characters, and esp the lead (TJ). There's a lot of room for analysis & interpretation.

For eg, if they wanted to paint TJ as a cold blooded murderer from the get-go, why leave the killing of the Congressman in a gray area where self-defense can be feasibly argued? They could have just let TJ murder him without all the fanfare. He certainly had the motive & the opportunity.

There are also a series of other ambiguous actions (where you can interpret either or) throughout the drama. I don't think they were random.

Anyway, I'll stop here! Thx for being a sport & discussing this with me, Sun! :)

Sun, we can agree to disagree.

I can't remember the full details around that particular aspect of the show (when SH went to the station). I'll watch it again when I have the time.

However, I do NOT believe TJ would have continued demolishing buildings he knows people are in. To me that's an illogical conclusion which I know the show might have led viewers to believe, but think about it.

Do you really think the SK authorities would allow some maniac to go around bombing buildings he knows people are in? If he wouldn't stop himself, the law would stop him.
If TJ had chosen to live he WOULD have gone to prison for murder or at the very least manslaughter for demolishing a building with human beings in it. Now, knowing what we know about TJ ... a man who hates living in poverty, do you really believe he'd continue with overtly criminal behaviours that would impede his progress?

Perhaps 'principle' was not the right word to use in this context, but the point it is that the guy lived by some guiding caveats. Not all of them were bad.

Please understand that even though I understand his motivations & defend his character that does not necessarily mean I personally agree with all his choices. Just to make it clear I do NOT condone murder (the only one being the man in the demolished building). I simply try to look at his character critically beyond the scope of how the writers wanted him to be portrayed.

Hello Edinaa, how are you? I've missed you. I know that's my fault because I've been so bad at keeping in touch. Sorry I've been such a bad friend to you lately. I'm just unusually stressed out about a lot of things lately (in fact I've been going thru a challenging period for a good while now) & sometimes I just don't have the energy to reply to wall posts. It turns out to be just another chore that I have to do, thus making me feel even more stressed.

Anyway, I hope you're doing well. Fill me in on what you've been up to. What's been going on in your life? Have you been watching anything good lately?

Sorry, not the ending quote, but in the phone call he made to Seul Hee to pay his final respects. Re ... acknowledging his crime against the poor.

I would not accept help from my enemy. Ok, perhaps I'm exaggerating a bit. Perhaps he & SY were not 100% enemies, but they'd just come out of a very intense power struggle. Emotions were running high. TJ was a highly emotional man despite his steely resolve. Emotion drove him more times than it didn't, or should have. He had a lot of pride, yes ... where the Chois are concerned I think that's a good thing, BUT I still wished he hadn't chosen suicide.

However, in his mind I guess he'd rather 1) die than bow to the Chois and 2) he acknowledged his mistake of bombing the building himself (without SH), saying in the ending quote that the taking of his own life is to atone for that sin. He didn't deserve to live since he was responsible for that man's death.

I don't agree with his logic, but that's the principle he lived by. At least he HAD principles. MJ had none. I doubt prison will change him. As soon as he gets out he'll be back at trying to wrest the empire out of SY's hands, you & I both know that, Sun.

I plan to watch The Chaser sometime soon. While I disliked MJ with a passion, I became a fan of the actor watching him in this performance. In fact I became a fan of everyone (was a fan of Go Soo before, though mostly for his good looks. Now I respect him as an actor too) except the female lead. I've seen her in other shows & she just doesn't have much range. Same frozen expression in pretty much every role. She's like the Korean Kristen Stewart. GE is perhaps the only role that suited her stone-faced demeanour.

I see there's a 1967, 1969 and 1978 version of Double Suicide on asiatorrents. I know you've seen the '69 one, have you seen any of the other others? I think the '67 version is done by Nagisa Oshima, who also directed Realms.

Speaking of Miike I saw Visitor Q the other day. Only a sick mind like Miike could cook that up! haha I guess I'm sick too since I was totally fascinated by this bizarre universe he created. I'm going to watch his version of Hara-kiri soon.

By the way you should see Miike in Last Life in the Universe. Just a cameo, but he totally stole the scene! lol
Good movie too. I really like Tabanoubu Asano.

You wanted him to be the lead OVER Seung Won ahjussi??? Girl, are you mad??? lol

Haven't seen Crazy for You or Who Are You. What 'Who Are You' are you talking about by the way ... the movie or the recently aired drama?

As for TJ & SY, I actually think they were a good match too. I loved the sarcastic banter that existed between them & after living together for 3 yrs it was clear they no longer disliked each other. I would have wanted to see an alliance formed between them, but I guess there wasn't enough time to explore it.

That notwithstanding, why should TJ accept any help from her now??? That would just mean he's a defeated dog with his tail between his legs, bowing to his enemy. While I don't agree with the suicide, *I* wouldn't want him to do that either. Moreover, Seul Hee & the guys would have paid for his lawyers. TJ needed nothing from her at that point.

Anyway, Sun, I know you watch a lot of drama so you probably want to move on from this one. The writer/s behind this series are indeed very skilled. I'll be looking out for more of their works.

First, I'm not trying to change your mind about TJ. Just giving you another interpretation of his character by pointing the little nuances to his character.

I know no one could convince me that MJ is in any way a good man or better TJ. MJ was pure & simple a psychopath. I'm unbiased enough to realize TJ may have been on his way to becoming one too, but he wasn't quite there yet.

That's why I think making him commit suicide goes against his character. TJ was a fighter. He sets his mind on a goal & pursue it until he gets it. He was not beyond the scope of redemption, unlike MJ who has spent his entire life exploiting people, it's now just a part of who he IS.

Had TJ gone to prison he probably would've realized that this destructive path of revenge wasn't worth it. He could focus his energies on building his own empire from scratch. He had the gumption & the smarts to do it.

I agree suicide is a coward's way out & while you disagree, TJ was by no means my definition of a coward. His character was established as the complete opposite. I think the writer wanted to play God ... instead of sticking to the character's true nature.

Seul Hee had a chance to come clean when TJ was arrested for corruption. When he left the room, you could see on his face that he thought SH was going to rat on him. SH, alone with the officer, had no one to intimidate her into NOT confessing. Instead she CHOSE not to confess out of her own affection for TJ. And there was at least one point where TJ was going to give up. Remember he & Seul Hee planned to run to the Philipines. They even arrived at the airport, only to have his passport confiscated.

As for Seo Yoon, she was alright. The only good seed in that family. I don't think she was a bad person for helping her brother. I was just trying to point out that every time TJ put his trust in a member of the Choi family they back stabbed him, making his hate grow more & more. I started out the drama rooting for her, but eventually I switched sides. Maybe because I know what it's like to go up against the established elite.

However, when did she offer to help TJ? I can't remember. She mostly took advantage of the support system TJ provided her. Once he moved in she no longer had to face the vipers that were her siblings alone. I do think she grew to love TJ. I remember a quote she told her brother about not having a choice in who you love (then they cut to a pic of TJ & back to her). I also think TJ fancied her. I think if he hadn't planned to divorce her & marry SH she would have been happy to keep him as her husband & for him to be Chairman. But as a woman & a filial daughter I understand that she couldn't allow TJ's plan to happen. So yeah I get her too.

That said, I think this situation also shows that while TJ may have a few bad stripes (like all human beings) he was a guy of enormous principle. He could've simply washed his hand of Seul Hee & stay married to Seo Yoon. After all if he did, Sun Jin Group was his! But no, TJ would never do something like that to Seul Hee ... a woman who has loved him & sacrificed so much for him. See that's the TJ I love & respect. I still do. He's one of my favourite characters of all time, flaws & all.

Thx to you too for a great discussion! I'm always happy to show people another side to TJ. :)

Moreover TJ didn't hold a gun to Seul Hee's head. She VOLUNTEERED to go to jail for him. She had the option to confess the truth when TJ was arrested, but again she CHOSE to cover for him. I'm not trying to make excuses for TJ. He should have fessed up himself, but at the same time I don't absolve grown adults of their personal responsibility. SH made the choice, therefore she alone should be held responsible for her actions.

How many times did MJ throw SY under the bus? Look at SY other family members ... the entire lot of them were nothing but vultures!

Up until he authorized the demolition, I was fully in TJ's corner. I didn't judge him for killing the Congressman, but I was disappointed that he did to someone else what happened to his dad. On the other hand, I'm convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that he suffered a very severe emotional break down when he realized he wasn't going to win & that he lost his mind.

That's why instead of dying I wanted him to go prison. I've always felt that TJ could have been rehabilitated. But he needed to fall first, learn from his mistakes & come back a better man. More importantly he needed DISTANCE from the Chois because they bring out the worse in him.

Having had this discussion with you and others I now see that you're probably right in that TJ is the type of guy who would rather die than accept defeat (esp from the Chois).

What I liked about TJ was his tenacity & pragmatic nature. He looked at his situation & said 'This sucks! I don't want to live like this' ... then he went out and did something about it. He worked hard & created a successful business. In this way, he was an inspiration to me.

While he occupied a moral grey area in his business dealings throughout the show, his ability to empathize & put the needs of others before his own is what kept me loyal to him. TJ would NEVER abandon or betray his mom or sister or anyone close to him. He had the opportunity to hand Seul Hee over to the Congressman. In fact, it was in HIS interest to do so, but the idea infuriated him.

I'm not particularly convinced TJ loved SH as she loved him. I think he cared for her - after all she gave him his start - and he's loyal to her, but I never got the vibe that he was IN love with her. She endeared herself to him because of how she loved him (after all, it's hard to NOT like someone who is good & kind to you). So if TJ was pure evil incarnate he wouldn't hesitate to sell Seul Hee off to the highest bidder.

Now let's replace TJ with MJ in the same situation. What do you think MJ would have done?

Let's not forget: Min-Jæ abandoned his wife on her sick bed to pursue wife #2 for her money. He didn't even attend Yun's funeral! Everybody judges TJ for allowing Seul Hee to take the fall for him. I agree it was a shitty move, but no one remembers that Min-jæ did the exact same thing. To his OWN father.

While I agree this is one time TJ acted selfishly, he did so convinced that he could win the golden empire FOR Seul Hee.

Awww ... that's perhaps the sweetest thing you've ever said to me! :)

What you been up to lately?

//hugs

LMAO! Your eyes gained weight! hahaha Girl, you say the darnedest things! ;)

I had to go check out who would make me judge you & I've seen the guy before, in The Greatest Love. I didn't like him. He played one of those annoying third wheel type of characters I wanted to swat like a fly. I also don't find him all that cute ... sorry dongsæng I normally agree with your crushes, but not this time! :p

As for the cheating men, girl it ain't just African men. Caribbean men are the same darn way. Not all, but a lot!

There are a surprising number of cultural similarities between Korea & the Caribbean, esp when it comes to dog men. Who would've thought? lol

The thing I hate most about cheaters in dramaland is not so much that they cheat (although that IS horrible), but how unrepentant they are. They're arrogant, unapologetic, abusive, rude! I just want to take a shotgun to them. I'm not a violent person at all, but it goes to show how these dramas bring out the worst in me.

Another theme I dislike and avoid religiously is noona-love. I'm sorry but I don't get the fascination grown ass women have with these boy toys. Aside from a little sexual gratification you're basically just a wallet. More power to the ladies who love them, but these dramas appeal to a fantasy I just don't have so I'll never watch Last Cinderella or the slew of noona romances popping up lately.

I also hear the love triangle is pretty intense in LC & that you never really know which man she'll end up with until the end ... (I know who she picks because I read the spoilers, but all that back & forth is another reason NOT to watch).

I'm not sure I'll watch Star either. On the hand this guy - he & I have pretty much identical taste in what we like - says he totally loves it so we'll see.

Can We Love ... it's about 70% confirmed. :)