Xiang83

Technically in the literal sense, that terrifies me on a certain level. But then again, Ye Mo is obsessive in his own way XD

I would be happy to have more of Ye Mo, so the philosophical underpinnings and ideas could be fully fleshed out. At this rate, I'll be lamenting over the Tianren Realm again, so...
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1fAykB4Ez7/

Enjoy《念水谣》by Wu Yizhi, rendition on the guzheng

A Journey To Love - Liu Shishi kicks ass there
Jun Jiu Ling - FL is strong, but in a different manner
The Double - Wu Jinyan gets her revenge and more than that

Can you expand on what you mean by "strong"?

right back atcha
˚∧＿∧ 　+ —̳͟͞͞💗
( •‿• )つ —̳͟͞͞ 💗 —̳͟͞͞💗 +
(つ　 < —̳͟͞͞💗
｜　 _つ + —̳͟͞͞💗 —̳͟͞͞💗 ˚
`し´

Thanks for the updated chart! Should I replace the one I previously linked in the "Group Collaborative Efforts" forum post with this chart, or should I share both with different headers?

Yo, spoiler tag please~

Before I happily get to what you said, to sum up the issues with A-Shui:

1) My sum disgruntlement of too many loopholes I couldn't reconcile, which seems as if the screenplay for the drama tried to insert a character that shouldn't be there (it doesn't help that I am aware of the novel being unfinished before the novel was adapted for the drama, where novel-Wanyu Yuedan informed novel-A-Shui of why her feelings for Tang Lici was fundamentally futile in chapter 40. The drama loosely adapts some details of the novel, but mostly differs from the novel):

https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24399916

2) Mizuhira-san is partial to A-Shui. Even then, this is what made her dissatisfied with A-Shui as a character:

https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24400420

3) Azure is aware of the original screenplay before the final edits and changes for the drama. Here is what Azure shared about the loophole pertaining to A-Shui that couldn't be reconciled in the drama for me and several other viewers, and the differences in screenplay versus drama for A-Shui only strengthened my belief that the original screenplay tried to accommodate a character that really shouldn't be there:

https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24394712

~*~*~*~

If one wants Chi Yun to remain alive, simply remove Bai Suche. She doesn't contribute anything to the drama and if Chi Yun had to die, it would be because of saving Tang Lici or Shen Langhun.

I agree that yes, it sucks to not see Shen Langhun's reaction to Chi Yun's death. This is clearly another point for the drama being too bloated cast-wise, and should have removed two characters: A-Shui plus Bai Suche.

Rearranging certain details is because not everyone comes to the drama with the same interest and two questions always come first: Why should I watch this drama? Why should I care about any characters?

Informing the audience by episode two about the conflict between Tang Lici and Liu Yan is essential, while making us want to know their backstory. Removing that beautiful flashback of Tang Lici with Liu Yan playing together to be replaced with the flashback I mentioned is necessary, combined with the rest of my edits for episodes 2 and 5 because the overall sum can look too pose-y and favouring aesthetics without answering these two questions, and hence feel draggy to anyone with a shorter attention span trying to decide if this drama is paced properly for engaging the plot-driven viewer that might not understand the theatre and opera of it all adding to the villains being more showy in their actions and gestures.

Flashbacks must be restructured and rearranged and as you also noticed, not repetitive. Fang Yilun was not overacting and actually on-point with the theatre and opera of it all, but because of the arrangement of scenes not addressing certain angles, how can someone who doesn't understand the view of a traditional chinese medicine practitioner realise the conflict between Tang Lici and Fang Yilun is not due to miscommunication? It's a justifiable misunderstanding from Liu Yan's perspective, but I will question how many international non-mandarin viewers are going to get this completely about Liu Yan going almost berserk at times and wanting to kill Tang Lici?

The Rebirth Scroll is partially what makes Liu Yan unhinged but the audience doesn't know this, and first needs to realise why Tang Lici and Liu Yan are so severely estranged because what Tang Lici did was an abomination to anyone, especially Liu Yan as a TCM doctor.

Ai Mi and Bai Shu were hilarious. When they first came out, some of us were totally enjoying their chemistry as longtime friends who behave like a couple that has broken up bickering over their dog. Ai Mi was 16 when she shot these scenes, and for her to hold her own with Luo Yunxi while giving FL vibes was impressive. But she grew up in this industry and has also been trained by some of the best directors across more than ten years, so the end results were expected. She was FL in a serious movie with Ao Ziyi (actor for Chi Yun) as ML that aired in November 2024. She was also one of three actors to win an award for Rising Young Actor at the recent Wenrong 2025 Awards.

My mandarin-speaking friends are aware of her shining in supporting roles in many dramas across several years, and are looking forward to her as FL for future dramas while also able to break out of being stuck only in idol dramas, such as "Above The Wall" which is her first FL-drama that airs in 2026: https://kisskh.at/770155-above-the-wall

Would have liked to see the backstory of Tang Lici and Xue Xianzi, plus Shui Duopo and Xue Xianzi, but that will only be in the imagination.

Characterisations for Zhong Chunji, Xifang Tao, Hong-guniang and these other subplots could have been strengthened and/or added if one removes Bai Suche and A-Shui. The story changes drastically for the better.

When Xifang Tao disintegrated in episode 40, nothing was left of her physical body. When Gui Mudan disintegrates, what is left of his body is a metal heart on the ground, which is very touching because it shows that even as a puppet after everything he went through as Gui Mudan, even he could develop a heart. And that cat played a huge part for it.

You don't see anything happen to the white cat, which is a very active cat. It was jumping in the air towards Gui Mudan and he made a move to catch it and protect it, which is also why Xifang Tao could strike him even as Tang Lici was about to stab Ye Mo.

Tang Lici and his cat is not something I fully remember, in terms of outcome. But I am certain nothing also happens to it.

Originally, Fengfeng the baby adopted by Tang Lici was also not mentioned in terms of an outcome in the drama. That was definitely noticed by a significant number of viewers as a flaw, and enough feedback reached the directors and producers. Across 10 episodes, I had also been wondering about that too, which I saw as a huge negative. Then episodes 1 and 2 had certain extra scenes inserted for the various platforms, including MangoTV and IQiyi.

This presents a problem to add to the other problems around A-Shui's plotline: it's not even inferred in the drama by a certain late episode.

If fans for good writing really had power regardless of whoever one is a fan of, this drama would be undeniably more male-centric because Chi Yun and Shen Langhun badly needed more screentime with Tang Lici given their importance to him, with the likes of Hong gu-niang, Zhong Chunji and Xifang Tao also with more screentime to flesh out their characters, and minus two characters from this drama. Then this drama would not only be stronger in storyline and subplots, the editing would be better, and the characters would also connect well to each other to strengthen the philosophical underpinnings.

The biggest problem is too many characters in this drama. The fact that my suggestions for improving the drama includes almost 50% of trying to paper over loopholes for A-Shui's existence and motives while improving her characterisations plus incidents for the drama says it all.

If a perceived potential of a character is greater than what is actually portrayed, then what we are looking at is a weakly-written character. It is even worse when a character's primary worth is reduced to being in a "romance" for someone else (given the kind of claims being made to bolster said character's relevance to the drama on this page, ever since the drama aired). In life, I advise people to look at how others behave towards you in words and actions to ascertain who they are first, instead of being carried away by your potentially-wrong perceptions of potential. This is also the same for dramas, because we judge by what we see as a smooth continuous story making sense, instead of loopholes being created and unresolvable due to trying to insert said-character in the first place and hence she becomes a weakly-written character.

Given maternal vibes that could also be inferred as per the unfinished novel before it was adapted for the drama (if one doesn't sail in with romance-distorted lenses and objectively watches the drama) plus the manner in which certain things were "resolved" between Tang Lici and A-Shui, the end result is what it is: Trying to justify a character which should not have been in the drama at the expense of all the other characters.

Oh noes (,,>﹏<,,) I hope you feel better soon.

For Bai Nanzhu, I would want more of his backstory, but I also wonder what details should be in the drama to better flesh it out other than his beliefs. Tang Lici and Ye Mo would have been very fascinating *ੈ✩‧₊˚༺☆༻*ੈ✩‧₊˚*ੈ✩‧₊˚༺☆༻*ੈ✩‧₊˚*ੈ✩‧₊˚༺☆༻*ੈ✩‧₊˚

If it helps, Tang Lici's beautiful sentiments in episodes 27 to 29 for himself and for Fang Zhou will always be unforgettable: https://m.weibo.cn/detail/5231577761583667#&video

We should have had at least one episode of the Tianren realm (frankly, me translating Fengliu Dian as "House of Pleasure" or "House of Vicissitudes" makes me wince). But then again, would it improve the editing for the current drama? After consideration in yesterday's discussion thread, the only improvements should really have been a completely bold approach right from the beginning and removing two characters from the current drama.

People were primarily watching "Immortal Ascension" for Yang Yang and his adventures. Great sidekicks only add to the story, not detract. I wanted more time for Chi Yun and Shen Langhun (criminally underused).

Thank you for your extensive write-up in Spanish of Luo Yunxi's talents and performance highlights!

If you want to peruse the extensive details of gems within this drama, the forum thread "Group Collective Contributions: Details, trivia, insights across 40 episodes of "Whispers of Fate" will help. It includes details about the official poster on this MDL page from RBF in 2023, fascinating details across 40 episodes from underthestars, insights into Timelines and Worldviews from Azure, and many more:

https://kisskh.at/discussions/755725-shui-long-yin/146454-group-collective-contributions-details-trivia-insights-across-40-episodes-of-whispers-of-fate

I also strongly recommend TaraVerde's review for Whispers of Fate. It is a phenomenal labour of love extending to three posts across Reddit, expanding on the arts and aesthetics and philosophical aspects of the drama:

https://kisskh.at/profile/TiaraBella/review/515614

No wonder this discrepancy that I picked up on was too jarring for me! Thanks for helping me realise the difference between the screenplay versus the drama, and how the whitewashing of A-Shui's character for the drama became the final touch that couldn't save her already-weak plotline.

A-Shui can't remember her brother Fang Zhou, but she remembers her father. What is her motivation and reasons to keep sacrificing for Tang Lici, given how he has not treated her in any special way, and continuously showed his suspicion and contempt of her early in the drama once they were on his ship? This is a gigantic loophole. Of course Tang Lici is super-suspicious. I would be super-suspicious of someone possibly connected to the person I know trying to kill me, being made to look like the victim who can recognise my face. Why? Because this "victim" also has special blood that can also miraculously cure me, and I would naturally feel sympathetic for her if I did not notice all this. This is too much for me to accept without contempt and with wariness and keeping at arms' length.

In order to make things believable, that is why I would alter events before episode 19 and the conversation for episode 19, to give A-Shui unique independence as a character cementing true kindness and intelligence and grace, foreshadowing and at least show that she can maybe remember only a hint of her past and is fundamentally alike with Fang Zhou so that when she finally sees the carving, her memory is fully jogged. This would all make sense, rather than suddenly trying to make us believe she is Fang Zhou's sister.

Giving Tang Lici blood from her lips would never have happened if Tang Lici didn't have to go and save A-Shui because she got kidnapped. I shorten A-Shui's scenes and make her more unique, and Zhong Chunji also becomes more believable for what happens between her and Tang Lici.

Also, the directors want us to believe A-Shui carried Tang Lici through the forest by herself, and Chi Yun didn't see anything wrong with saying this? How much eye-rolling do they expect the older pickier viewers to do? Anybody with at least 20 years C-drama experience will notice this random popping up and vanishing that makes no sense, including the "carrying through the forest" that also makes no sense. Kindly address that discrepancy via something such as a short flashback or an answer from A-Shui to Tang Lici's question, if Gui Mudan's puppet child is involved.

I want A-Shui to be uniquely graceful and intelligent, not a doormat whose ultimate significance was that she couldn't even take revenge without being a pawn and when she takes revenge, she gets it all wrong too. What kind of female character is this for any intelligent person to champion?! Even my grandmothers don't believe a woman should be defined by a man, and both of them didn't finish schooling past the age of 13.

Hence all my edits because as it stands, current drama A-Shui is looking rather unadmirable primarily as a blood bank with inconsistent motives whose presence is due to too many loopholes of unaddressed issues.

Because of A-Shui's maternal vibes, some people picked up on the maternal issue which is why I quoted a portion of chapter 40 from the novel, when Teng Ping left unfinished a novel that she did not like and spoke disparagingly about, until said novel was adopted for the drama.

If a potential of a character is greater than what is actually portrayed, then what we are looking at is a weakly-written character. It is even worse when a character's primary worth is reduced to being in a romance for someone else. In life, I advise people to look at how others behave towards you in words and actions to ascertain who they are first, instead of being carried away by your perceptions of potential. This is also the same for dramas, because we judge by what we see as a smooth continuous story making sense, instead of loopholes being created and unresolvable due to trying to insert said character in the first place.

Shui Duopo is essential to the drama for Tang Lici and the battles between Fengliu Dian versus the Central Plains Sword Alliance, and Xue Xianzi is necessary to find her. With Chi Yun and Shen Langhun, the entire timeline could be moved up. A-Shui has no relevance to this.

What about the ledgers? We could alter the characterisation of Gu Xitan or Zhong Chunji, and it could work. The screenplay appears to be trying too hard to include A-Shui as a relevant character, instead of the other way around.

Chi Yun would not have to die (or at least die for another more substantial reason likely to do with saving Tang Lici), if Bai Suche was also not in the story.

For me, I don't fault Zhong Chunji for what she did (because I explained in a comment to Enigma05 more than 5 weeks ago) about PTSD plus her background in a misogynistic alliance and how Liu Yan really did a number on her. But we needed something more, to help us connect believably as to why Zhong Chunji likes Tang Lici.

Azure has two comments to this thread you should check out, especially about the loopholes of A-Shui which I noticed (I share one of them here):

https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24394712

I also gave a reply to Azure:

https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24399652

Here's the problem with A-Shui being the obviously weakest subplot and Zhong Chunji needing to be fleshed out a bit more, which I noticed and my opinion finally changed fundamentally because of one troll account on this page with at least six sockpuppet accounts constantly attacking other users including me who praised other female characters and their actresses, while those accounts also kept going on about A-Shui's "romance" with Tang Lici as if that female character had no worth to contribute to this drama (plus the accounts obviously didn't finish watching many episodes of the drama and primarily relied on clips) -See my next comment:

Your approach for keeping all the characters with the edits also makes further sense. I was trying not to be too ruthless but if we look at it as objectively as you, I agree Yu Qifeng and Yu Furen really didn't need all that time onscreen too. Xiao Shi needed more screentime, and so did Ye Mo.

If Bai Suche was not in the story because yes, she doesn't add to the plot, Chi Yun wouldn't have met the end that he did.

Palace of Fallen Jade with my changes would definitely be shortened, and we could further shorten the talking with Wanyu Yuedan after the battle was won.

Removing A-Shui plus Bai Suche would indeed result in a story that is stronger. Shui Duopo needed to be found earlier also because of Xue Xianzi, with Chi Yun and Shen Langhun accompanying Tang Lici.

The only reason why we even have A-Shui giving blood to Tang Lici via the lips is because A-Shui got kidnapped, and Tang Lici had to go and save her. This is majorly not a good way to make me believe a female character is essential.

Here's my question: As for your suggestion of starting episode 1 in the manner you mentioned, is this without A-Shui in the story or with A-Shui in the story? Does that mean if it is A-Shui in the story, the murders at the wedding banquet at the Hao Residence starts later?

Gui Mudan comes to realise that the white cat is the most important life to him, in the final episode. That white cat will always be protected by Gui Mudan, and his love for it becomes incredibly touching. Don't worry about the cat :)

The cast is very packed and can be perceived as bloated, and the only reason Xiao Shunyao couldn't have shot more scenes is because of his injuries from a stunt.

There are legitimate complaints that Tang Lici, Shen Langhun and Chi Yun don't have enough interactions for this drama. They were also a huge attraction for the brotherhood and camaraderie that they brought on this adventure. Shen Langhun is my favourite Jianghu therapist and I am glad that he had a happy ending because of Tang Lici.

Chi Yun's death was unfortunately part of the trio domino rally of deaths to enable Tang Lici to reach his conclusion of sacrifice by the end of episode 39. I would have preferred Chi Yun not to die, but since he was accompanying Bai Suche... Hearing Chi Yun's theme song makes my eyes watery because of his ending.

Zhong Chunji's role would have been wonderful to give more facets to. That's part of the reason why I suggested one more interaction with Tang Lici. She could have been practising say, her ultimate skill which Tang Lici comes across, they spar and he helps her realise how to improve further with something insightful and personal- This is how it would at least make her later actions more understandable. What would you have wanted for Zhong Chunji in this drama, such as if you used my edits?

Being able to find Shui Duopo is because of Xue Xianzi. With Chi Yun and Shen Langhun as well, A-Shui isn't necessary to finding Shui Duopo, and Shui Duopo's presence would have been moved to an earlier episode in the drama because of Tang Lici needing to find her sooner rather than later.

The storyline can be rewritten in such a way that the details with the ledgers and talking to Sect Leader Jiang of Yanmen can be addressed adequately, which doesn't fundamentally need A-Shui to carry out.

A-Shui's role was weak, also because Lin Yun wasn't given much to work with. After seeing how Lin Yun couldn't pull off what was needed for micro-emoting in the monumental scenes with Luo Yunxi and Jeremy Tsu, I believe it is for the best that she was given specific limited scenes.

And perhaps you are right. If A-Shui had been killed off, she might have been able to leave a different impact. The letter ending was weak, also because Tang Lici's reactions to her big reveal and to her letter were weak. What happened previously between them was also not impactful enough in these episodes, and it all boils down to writing trying to accommodate a character that could have been absent from the drama without any issues.

How does A-Shui remember her father but not her brother? If she doesn't remember her brother, for what justifiable reason does she make all these sacrifices for Tang Lici, given how he is treating her? I would be super-suspicious that someone involved with my former senior brother (who wants to kill me and pretended to be me) in a murder suspect case can also miraculously save me with their blood. It's too coincidental. The premise of A-Shui making such sacrifices is very weak, so I would have to strengthen it with my edits but it doesn't address loopholes in the original drama to accommodate A-Shui as a character.

Having more of Ye Mo and Bai Nanzhu is what I wanted, and Jeremy Tsu as Ye Mo would have been interesting. More of Gui Mudan would also have been fascinating and integral, to tie all their roles together in how Tang Lici also experiences more-encompassing ideas and expresses as such, because of them.

Fang Yilun was a big wonderful surprise for me, given how he aptly channelled Heath Ledger as the Joker in that scene in episode 14 with Qiaoyi Qiankun. His chemistry as Liu Yan with Hong-guniang, and as Liu Yan with Tang Lici- When he was talking to Tang Lici in that final conversation, my eyes suffered from watering more than when Chi Yun died. And Chi Yun's death was something I already prepared for, before the end of 10 episodes of the drama.

If certain scenes had been rearranged, it would have made a lot more sense. The first five episodes are the most crucial, and the middle episodes of 19 to 22 are also crucial. If we had at least the changes I suggested, this drama would have been improved in terms of pacing and characterisation and perception of aesthetics at times being too favoured over the storyline.

He's young, and will go far with the right dramas and variety of roles that stretch him. This project should open doors for him.

Yes. The beings in the Tianren Realm are equivalent to demi-gods but not impervious from aging, as Azure's forum post describes. We needed at least one episode about the Tianren Realm to really do full justice to Tang Lici's story, but things are what they are. I wanted at least one full episode to include Ye Mo and Bai Nanzhu. Still a very valiant effort for a very ambitious and complex project with the final results, given the difficulty of creating this drama!

Still somewhat mopey over the fact that we did not get to see details of Ye Mo and Bai Nanzhu that should have been included in the drama D: