Xiang83

If we are limited to her leaving in chapter 35, then her impact before that should be maximised given the limited screentime she has, a trait which other characters also have to work with. I have no issues with Tang Lici giving a stronger emotional reaction than what we got in episodes 34 and 35. "What could have been" as the regret! Why didn't I get regret from Tang Lici? Because Tang Lici's reactions were mainly mostly composed.

I also mentioned the poem as a suggestion, because I have also been told several observations that Lin Yun's emoting in those scenes was underwhelming. Even before I heard that from other people (all not on this website), watching her exchange with Luo Yunxi and then with Jeremy Tsui had me thinking the VA is doing the carrying in those scenes.

With a short poem (even if it is just two lines), this addition would set a direction for the actress and audience, and convey the distinction that A-Shui is coldly purposeful and intelligent regardless of her facial expressions. A very good or great director will compensate for any weaknesses in an actor or actress. Tang Lici is therefore cut to the core between the A-Shui he remembers and the A-Shui he is now facing. When Tang Lici tells Gui Mudan that A-Shui looked at him with hatred, all I could recall was A-Shui looking petulant. This was not the takeaway I wanted to have.

This is supposed to be the journey of Tang Lici as he travels through Shenzhou to fully grasp the seven emotions and eventually embody the most noble love that would resonate as per the significance of his character, his origins and the poster on the MDL synopsis page.

How does A-Shui fit into this main storyline? How does A-Shui doing martial arts fit the main storyline?

Conveying a barely-there romance (which people could also interpret as one-sided) as the main focus for A-Shui, instead of how A-Shui could be so impactful and individualistic as to be a crucial part of Tang Lici's journey, was the wrong focus. I watched all the episodes and that is unfortunately how episodes 34 and 35 turn out.

You said you were at episode 21, at least two days ago. Have you watched episodes 34 and 35, where Tang Lici's mostly-composed responses were solidly lacking towards A-Shui, compared to the amount of grief he expresses in later episodes for others?

I'm not going to claim a CP for this drama, especially when we get to these episodes. By this point, I see it as dishonest for anyone to do so when the "romance" has been so lacking that even non-romance viewers are satisfied with these episodes.

I may not be grasping novel-Tang Lici's obsession with novel-A-Shui, since I did not like instances such as Tang Lici willing to sacrifice A-Shui to protect Liu Yan by hurling A-Shui into definite harm's way. Novel-Tang Lici was so obsessed with A-Shui that he was willing to have her badly-wounded or die for Liu Yan. That's the total opposite of obsession. Or maybe the fact that novel-Tang Lici let her leave him forever is also another form of obsession I don't get. One of us has a problem with English or one of us has a fundamental problem with facts.

I have also made my suggestions on how it could be improved for A-Shui to have maximum impact on Tang Lici while maintaining her individuality, under a spoiler tag. The reality stands that this is how things have turned out, which makes A-Shui's characterisation unfortunate to me and seen as a hindrance or irrelevant to other viewers.

To help with everyone's journey through "Whispers of Fate", I've made a collective compilation post in the forum here for our group efforts, titled "Group Collective Contributions: Details, trivia, insights across 40 episodes of "Whispers of Fate"~ Let me know if I left out anything that you came across as insightful, since we have more than 17000 comments on this page!

https://kisskh.at/discussions/755725-shui-long-yin/146454-group-collective-contributions-details-trivia-insights-across-40-episodes-of-whispers-of-fate

Here are the contents this far (c-and-p from above):

[ For everybody who is new to the drama, still watching a specific episode, or ready to rewatch and think about what has happened?

Here are several posts for your consideration, to help your journey! Happy scrolling :)

1) In November 2023, RBF shares a very-important writeup about the poster on MDL synopsis page, pertaining to fundamental details about Tang Lici which is also reflected in the ending of the drama (spoilers for episode 40): https://kisskh.at/discussions/shui-long-yin/121095-sly-art-poster-analysis-slight-spoilers?pid=2851189&page=1#p2851189

2) underthestars created a very-helpful explainer and hidden facts thread with a general timeline for the drama. Spoilers exist, depending on which episode you are at. See how many nuggets you noticed! Start from the top of the post for the earliest episodes, and work your way down: https://kisskh.at/discussions/755725-shui-long-yin/146048-it-s-all-in-the-detail-whispers-of-fate-explainer-and-hidden-facts-thread

3) Episode summary for 34 and 35 of specific details (with additional thanks to Azure): https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24193018

4) Episode 14 for Gui Mudan:
Zaju recited by Gui Mudan (context plus mandarin and English translation):
https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24049694
https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24049698
Interpretation of Gui Mudan in episode 14 referencing two works including that zaju:
https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24049658

5) Episode summary for episodes 8 to 12: https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24006830

6) Thoughts of episodes 4 to 7: https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-23990386

7a) Azure's summary about Zhoudi Lou and the occupants such as Fang Zhou, Tang Lici, Liu Yan and Fu Zhumei: https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-23951190

7b) Azure explaining the exchange between the Abbot of Gold Leaf Temple and Tang Lici in episode 1: https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-23933494

8a) Hong-guniang's harp and its background in the culture of SEA (courtesy of Mizuhira-san): https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24000444

8b) "The Original Myth of Tuo Dragons" (courtesy of Mizuhira-san): https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24195286 ]

All the best! Please. sleep enough after that.

That is very cool. Thank you!

The ending is what I expected for Tang Lici. It ties-in to the poster-design and his character, in how he finally fully understands the seven emotions, the importance of letting go of what is ephemeral, and embodies the most noble love to break the cycle of rebirth and his destiny to help others. He makes mistakes like everyone else before that. This is what happens when you try to give people second chances or more than that. We're watching a drama, so we have a bird's eye-view. The drama characters don't have that.

I would expect Tang Lici to do what he did for Fang Zhou for a very simple but fundamentally crucial reason: Fang Zhou enabled him to be and remain Tang Lici. The debt owed by Tang Lici to Fang Zhou is enormous. Fang Zhou was his whole world for seven years, when he did not understand emotions. Tang Lici was literally an orphaned infant with emotions, despite biologically being an adult. I'm not saying this in BL-fashion. Fang Zhou was a parent, guardian, sibling and everything Tang Lici needed.

No one is excusing what Liu Yan, Xifang Tao or Gui Mudan are doing. However, the actors and actress for these villains are doing such a good job in their role that understandably, they have fans.

Oh dear. Looks like the observations pertaining to "Chi Yun and Shen Langhun should have been given more developments" is ringing more than a chime.

Chi Yun and Shen Langhun needed more time in the drama, and so did Ye Mo and Bai Nanzhu in the drama. All relationships and characterisations would have been improved if we had primarily concentrated on, "How does Tang Lici fully understand the seven emotions to make the choices that reflect him embodying the most noble loves in the end, as per Buddhism?"

Episode 8 was actually pretty heavy on certain details there, and ignoring that religious connotation would therefore make no sense to the ending.

Unfortunately, what you are saying is completely on-point. That is why it is impossible to deny that what we have with A-Shui is a female character who is difficult to respect for the characterisation when her contributions are too indirectly subtle, and hence either becomes

1) forgettable or
2) becomes questioned for existing in the drama. You could stick any female actress in this role, and this role would be forgettable.

Honestly, what is the actual popularity of the pairing for Tang Lici x A-Shui compared to other pairings?

That is why I would prefer a well-written character who moves us to think of them in ways we connect with. Otherwise your POV questioning why A-Shui should exist in the drama is as valid as my POV of A-Shui needing improvements to be a noteworthy individualistic character in the drama while making a significant impact helping Tang Lici with his journey.

Since Shui Duopo would look at A-Shui's wrist in episode 26, just two incidents of A-Shui giving blood (one being from the lips to save Tang Lici) is enough. I would have given A-Shui a small incident of writing four to eight words per person as a note for each person on Team Tang Lici to be a gift of encouragement and appreciation because it is her, when they are reunited at the Central Plains Sword Alliance.

I would have had her recite a short poem to Tang Lici about the human condition, and explain in a way that reminds us of Fang Zhou so that when she is revealed as Fang Zhou's sister, wow! I would also have her do something with Xiaoshi (such as make dough for a food) and invite Tang Lici to join them in doing so. Tang Lici does one thing in joining them. This is all in line with A-Shui's individuality. In a drama full of literary references for weapons and sets and performances, they could definitely do this. And retain the fireworks scene.

When they get to the Palace of Fallen Jade, I would have had Tang Lici get to Wanyu Yuedan by himself as quickly as possible without her presence, with Shen Langhun by his side if someone had to help him.

It was unbelievable how she is first to find him, after fighting with Liu Yan and having restored the divine alter with Wanyu Yuedan, but not Chi Yun with his speed and skills?

Several changes would make episode 34 more powerful. The problem with the current A-Shui characterisation means Tang Lici doesn't even cry for her. A woman who throws herself at a man and goes around planting her lips on his lips- That would be a huge suspicious flag to receive, considering how much betrayal he has already received. Due to current A-Shui depiction, how fast does Tang Lici go from talking to her in episode 34 with mildly reddened eyes showing hurt from betrayal due to what he believes about her claims to him about why she does what she does, to mentioning Gui Mudan in a clear-eyed manner? A matter of several seconds.

He told Zhong Chunji he didn't understand emotions, and that Fang Zhou did not teach him how to love. His time in Zhoudi Lou appears to have equipped him only until the point of understanding family and grasping certain foundations of emotions, which he needs to fully comprehend after losing Fang Zhou and Zhoudi Lou.

If A-Shui's characterisation had been different as I suggested, episode 35 would be even more powerful, when A-Shui leaves. Tang Lici would have good reason to pause and show more emotions after reading her letter. The whole "what could have been" would have been seen as definitely present, IMHO.

That is why I focus on the characterisation of A-Shui. The main story is Tang Lici understanding the seven emotions to fulfill and embrace and embody the most noble forms of love, so how could A-Shui help with that to also be "could have been a great love" and hence lead to Tang Lici expressing regret while also learning to let go, yet maximise the impact of episodes 34 and 35? Episode 34 combined with episode 35 =Tang Lici's reactions could be interpreted as no extra non-platonic feelings except respecting A-Shui is her own person who needs to live her own life.

Below is what I put under spoilers, for preferred changes to A-Shui:

You won't get hate for asking questions XD

But on a more serious note, I'd say the flashbacks for the first ten episodes could have been handled better. I believe there should have been two long flashbacks plus one short flashback pertaining to Zhoudi Lou, with the second longer flashback being structured differently to cement how and why Fang Zhou is crucial to Tang Lici's decisions for more than 28 episodes and hint that Tang Lici is more important than he might realise, while conveying why Tang Lici must understand the seven emotions.

That would have made for a stronger narrative. Similarly. when people question why A-Shui is relevant to this drama, this is my answer of why I say so but her characterisation is weak for prioritising romance over characterisation:

https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24219460

https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24220168

You don't have to change your mind. As I previously said, " And if you don't, hopefully you'll feel better about it all at the end."

Different strokes for different folks. I'm sure Xifang Tao is engendering a lot of dislike for her role because she mostly isn't a good person, but the actress Chen Yao is being heralded for her performance as Xifang Tao on Chinese social media. Bao Shang En took on a fairly difficult role for emoting and given what she's supposed to convey at one point due to the plot, her role as Zhong Chunji is going to engender reactions like yours. That said, lasting anger isn't good for the health. Hence I hope you will feel better about it all at the end :)

I'd say bromance. There's a large segment of not-interested-in-romance viewers for this drama too, whereby it's also possible not to see any romance from Tang Lici's POV.

Tang Lici would never wish that upon her. If you keep watching, perhaps you might change your mind. And if you don't, hopefully you'll feel better about it all at the end.

Trying to compile a list of helpful details for the forum. And of course, listening to the OST! Gui Mudan's character song gives me so many feels about what it means to be human, just like the OP song matching the ending!

That is amazing. Thank you for the update!

My friends who watched this (male and female) all reckon A-Shui's characterisation is weak. They balked at her prominent scenes being solely for Tang Lici while totally disempowering her individuality and what she was supposed to represent. The end result was they couldn't even recommend her as a female character to others and wondered about her relevance to this drama, despite all her other subtle contributions and indirect help. Having watched enough C-Ent, the first priorities are plot plus characterisation, not romance (unless it is a xianxia romantic KISS drama ie keep-it-simple-commercial, then that is different whereby you can get high chances of success for a specific audience).

A-Shui would have benefitted from having iconic scenes, and three scenes I would have instituted would cement "family" and "home" plus her ability with words and how similar she is to someone while preserving her individuality and gentle strength. This would in turn naturally strengthen the possibility of Tang Lici having a stronger emotional reaction in episodes 34 and 35 to her as more than platonic rather than his reactions being minimally reactive. Which people does he lose his cool with? Which people does he shed tears for? My suggestions would definitely shorten Lin Yun's screentime, but screentime doesn't correlate to impact of a character.

As a result after 40 episodes, if someone asks about romance between Tang Lici and any female roles here, I refuse to claim there is a CP otherwise it is dishonest and misleading.

Tang Lici holds true to his character after fully comprehending the seven emotions, to fully embody the most noble forms of love. Tang Lici also has chemistry with everyone, so you can ship whoever you please. Bromance, yes, because the story does not deny Tang Lici's ties to Zhoudi Lou and the impact of that place on his life and choices. Throughout 40 episodes, the directors skilfully walked a thin line of catering to three factions including the no-romance faction. If you want reciprocal confirmed two-sided romance, this is not it. But if you use your imagination after seeing some scenes for that kind of romance, that will have to suffice.

Tang Lici and everyone gets a happy ending, from my POV in line with the Buddhist themes and understanding of Tang Lici's character. Unless you want spoilers for a more exact opinion, that's all I can say.

This post by RBF from 2023 has spoilers, while explaining a very important concept about Tang Lici: https://kisskh.at/discussions/shui-long-yin/121095-sly-art-poster-analysis-slight-spoilers?pid=2851189&page=1#p2851189

You'll get your answer in episode 40.