It’s like you are deliberately hoping to make people riled up. We have discussed this extensively over the course…
Correction : I did not being weibo drama here. I did not bring fandom fighting. What I brought was discussion points. I wondered about war and fighting and if there was a point when we should not romanticize about it. I still have no real answer. But you can't stop me from wondering.
I would appreciate if you don't put words into my mouth.
As for drama, there is plenty here in MDL.
Me talking about Jing vs you guys talking about Xiangliu. Do you have more right to do that than me?
Just because you are passionate about Xiangliu and talk about him alot, does it mean I can't talk about the characters I am passionate about? Are you saying because he is more popular here, everyone else can be freely slandered so Xiangliu will look even better?
Point out to me when I dragged Xiangliu? I have made my observations on his actions. I did not add anything that is not there.
As we may all know, Tu Shan Jing, the second male lead and endgame character in the world of 'Lost You Forever,'…
You analysed him for so long but you came to the conclusion his actions are opposite of 'Confucian thought'?
The very basis of Jing's sufferings stemmed from being filial to his grandmother who refused to let him marry the princess because she placed the clan before her grandson. Even after she set him up and ruined his chance at happiness forever, he still gave her the respect she was due as a widow who had worked her whole life for centuries for the Tushan family.
As for all the journey for your 'anti-heroes' none of them could have succeeded without Tushan Jing.
Just because he was in the background not seeking praise because all he wanted was Xiaoyao, you guys really just write him off.
Tushan Jing is literally the Kingmaker of LYF.
Without his funding and plans, would Cangxuan have been able to get to the throne staying behind in Xiyan? Would Fenglong be able to break out from the chains of his clan and enter the court to seek his political aspirations? During the years of his coma, those two were at the verge of collapse because they had no funds. Would even the Chenrong army have survived for all these extra centuries, without necessary food, weapons or supplies? Now you even try to make him look like a 'bad guy' for helping the Lirong clan who had been abandoned by every other family in Chenrong, because they had been closely affiliated with the Chenrong army. Maybe you should be asking, is why the Lirong family were into underground gambling and death cage fighting, if they had options to do proper business in the open, they probably would have. Which was also why Jing introduced his friend to Cangxuan, future king, so they can improve their clans future.
Tushan Jing is not perfect, but some of you really won't stop with the character assassination just because Xiangliu was not the one Xiaoyao chose.
Since people kept bringing up interviews Here is what TH really said about LYF : She said there is no true love without a proper foundation. That was why she spent such a long time writing about Xiaoliu and Shiqi's days in Qingshui town.
Also, the leads for LYF are Cangxuan and Xiaoyao.
TH's inspiration for LYF is from Jin Yong's novel 【雪山飞狐】 She wanted to explore how two orphans set on different paths will be able to find their happiness in their lives.
For everyone who mocks Xiaoyao for making finding true love her quest in life after helping Cangxuan ascend the throne and other achievements along the way; for Xiaoyao, to think she can trust and love someone else is precisely her character growth and her path to her freedom from her cage.
Physical cages serve to bind traumatic bonds between XY and XL, XY and TSJ, and XY and CX. However, it is how…
Seeing how XL was the one who actually started as a slave trapped in a cage, and later dies as a 'slave' to another 'Master' he bound himself willingly to, I really disagree with you that he was the one who exercised free will in the end. If that free will was to bind himself to Hong Jiang, set on the path of death. I say this because in the unlikely event that Hong jiang said one day 'Guys, you know what, we don't have to fight to the death. Let's all go live on the pacific, where there are no memories.' Xiangliu would follow him. Chenrong's war was never his. He was a free creature of the sea, not of Chenrong. He made that war his because of Hong Jiang. If Xiangliu was 'free' why did Xiaoyao get so sad over him? It was because he was not free - he trapped himself willingly. I don't know if we can call that freewill.
Jing was the only one who did not end up a prisoner of negative feelings. He chose to be free of it. Even though he still had trauma from his torture, he did not live in the shadow of it.
As for Cangxuan, the poor guy literally stuck in that cage of power he made for life, unable to follow his heart's truest desire.
I really don't see finding true love and living blissfully for as long as they both shall live, as cursed in 'co-dependency'. You made finding a partner of their own choice, to spend their lives with sound like a crime.
It’s not we said it’s YZ said, but she probably understand less then you
What Yangzi said in her interview can be taken out of context.
What the novel and the drama is obviously showing is something we as the audience can and should interpret for ourselves.
When Xiaoyao made her choices at the points of time, she did not know how things was going to end. She made those choices anyway. To claim she only did it because of 'stated condition' is already a mistake, since that condition is obviously not met at those times.
We have the overall perspective since we finished the story but during the story, the characters are all stumbling around in the dark. Who really knew what was going to happen next?
It’s like you are deliberately hoping to make people riled up. We have discussed this extensively over the course…
Its so weird that you say Jing is stalking Xiaoyao when XL is always creeping around her as well... I would even say XL is bordering on being a voyeur ( S2 revelation ) which is truly disgusting... But 'sacrifices' have to be made, for Hong jiang and Chenrong army!
"Every time Xiaoyao was happy with TSJ, she never seem to remember XL."— Now, that is just not true. Allow me…
Jing doesn't know who is in her heart. He doesn't have the cheat hack. After their breakup he didn't even know she suffered heartache over him. He didn't think she really loved him that deeply.
Xiaoyao remembered how Xiangliu tried to force her to kiss him, and pulling Jing underwater was her way to try to get Jing to kiss her again.
Xiaoyao only wanted kisses from Jing. I can't believe so many people buy into this 'she was thinking of kissing Xiangliu when she kissing Jing' bs.
When Jing said ' you don't have me in your eyes' he meant the situation was not romantic and they were not kissing because of the mood or the feelings.
Not the Lovers bug again... if you can't tell what is real love that TH is trying to tell us.. then you are missing the whole point of LYF.
True love is something two people have to work towards to make it happen. You can have all kinds of advantages: like Cangxuan was already in Xiaoyao's heart and been her number 1 for years, Xiangliu got that couple bug; but if you don't work towards it, you won't get it.
Xiaoyao never wanted to make out with Xiangliu, and if you even said that, I don't know how you watched the scene.
I am sure Xiangliu is so thrilled that the woman he wanted a kiss from is thinking about how Jing left her and she had no more reason to save her lips from another man anymore... and so she decided to get CPR instead of drowning again. Real romantic thoughts... she wants Xiangliu so bad... wow...
This is the major issue with yaoliu fans. You always interpret physical, even forced physical contact as something Xiaoyao enjoyed or wanted.
It’s like you are deliberately hoping to make people riled up. We have discussed this extensively over the course…
Excuse me, I was not around here the past year so I cannot bring up discussion points I want to discuss? As I understand you guys don't have to engage with me so what is this ridiculous response on an open forum page? It's not like I went into your yaoliu threads to make my claims...
You have your views, I have mine and I can share them out here at least.
Don't worry about my reading. I have read the Chinese novel extensively over the past year ( I don't need translated version) and also read the leaked script. I just can't stand you people trying to drag Xiaoyao and Tushan Jing just because Xiaoyao never chose Xiangliu.
And Xiaoyao was healed by the end of the story btw. She didn't choose TSJ just because she was 'sick and co-dependant'.
It’s not we said it’s YZ said, but she probably understand less then you
If you can't tell that poor Xiangliu was just her rebound guy, that Xiaoyao was just waiting to be rescued from her desperate situation because she wants to run away from it all, then he is even more tragic that you all are making him out to be.
I see many repeating the 'Xiaoyao had no choice' that's why she chose TSJ.
As we can see, she has many options.
The trope of a 'dear cousin', who is so deeply in love with her, he's willing to give up his own personal happiness so she can remain safe in the kingdom he will build.
The trope of 'falling for the enemy', the one repeatedly 'forbidden' by her grandfather, father. Most times this type of 'advice' from elders would trigger a response to act contrary to their words but Xiaoyao is not that kind of female lead and she could control herself not to let her feelings for Xiangliu pass a certain boundary.
The trope TH used eventually for LYF is the trope where we see often in Cdrama or Kdramas, where the female lead runs into her love interest and saves his life, but neither will know each other's 'true identities' so it can keep the reason they will fall for each other 'pure' and not affected by material interests. Everything TH timed is to keep the yaojing relationship pure, up and including TSJ's confession, before she was revealed to be the Grand princess.
When Xiaoyao talked about marriage with her grandfather, the first person she mentioned indirectly was TSJ, with his engagement. The second person she mentioned was Xiangliu, with his enemy status. Her grandfather suggested to her a third option, which would become Fenglong - the perfect partner but a loveless union. Poor Cangxuan sitting by the side lines watching everything, constantly offering to be her eternal companion but did Xiaoyao ever include him as an 'option'?
Ye Shiqi has always been her first choice. To be blunt, Xiangliu was more like a backup. But probably better than Cangxuan who was a backup based on familial ties.
Every time Xiaoyao was happy with TSJ, she never seem to remember XL. But he was there for her during her breakup period, and he was a comfortable friend. I enjoyed their buddy vibes on the beach where Xiaoyao shot him that dirty look when he casually offered to kill ffyy and her child.
The only thing I see Xiaoyao having 'no choice' over is how she cannot forget her Ye Shiqi, her Tushan Jing. Because her feelings for him just cannot be controlled by cold reason. She needs no magic mirrors with TSJ, he has branded onto her soul and haunts her dreams with phantom sweet kisses.
I just hope with all the changes in S2, we can still get a good and reasonable development of the story. 4 more days left!
It's a looong story. At the end of S1, she agrees to marry Chishui Feng Long because Tushan Jing was forced to…
Zhang Wanyi is the first male lead. Tong hua has said in her interview that all the characters in LYF suffered from lovesickness, but Lost You Forever is for him. This is because LYF is a sequel from Once Promised, which was about the past generation, and LYF focus on the lives of the two royal orphans - Cangxuan and Xiaoyao, which continued from that story.
Is Jing soooo boring so you can talk only about XL??? Giiiiirl you obsessed with him more then us 🫣😏😏😏
Yes poison bugs are actually not a new concept... In other dramas, most of them are use to control the host, and normally there is a mother and child/children bug. So typically the stories will be like, the controller who usually wants to take over the world have the mother bug, and the children bug who are in the other hosts will be able to make them do their bidding.
I believe the most recent case I seen them appear was Mysterious Lotus Casebook.
Is Jing soooo boring so you can talk only about XL??? Giiiiirl you obsessed with him more then us 🫣😏😏😏
As I have said I don't really understand how the couple bugs work.
When they were first planted on Cangxuan, did the bugs accept the criteria because he loved Xiaoyao as family? He did not give consent so it was temporary but the bugs did accept that he was a candidate. Cangxuan's love for Xiaoyao only changed into a romantic nature after he saw her as a beautiful woman again, or do you think he actually had 'feelings' for the little girl from 200 years ago?
I don't think the bugs have turned into heartbreak bugs, because Xiaoyao would have suffered backlash as well and she had no spirit power to suppress them. But does anyone really know how the bugs assess what is 'love'? Do they feed on the feelings of their hosts or just hang around in their bodies? Do they have a tipping point when they feel 'hey this is not love'. Or its more of just the conditions of 'installation' for the man to accept the bugs and later on the life and death part is just through their connection.
Maybe it a couple was really 'in love' the bug connection would be able to link them and make them truly 'as one' in mind. So in theory if the man changed his mind and fell for another, the woman will feel pain and anger and so she can torture him with the pain she is feeling? And if she was vengeful and decides to kill herself she can take the man along with her? Which is why I always felt the couple bugs is not romantic at all, its sometimes more like a threat in a relationship.
Or maybe the couple bugs are usually fine and require no sustenance but I feel that is unlikely. When they had no hosts, Xiaoyao had to use her own blood to feed the bugs. So after they live in their bodies, what kind of toll would they demand?
But what was clear in that moment when Xiangliu floored Xiaoyao with pain that was like 'a sword to her heart' perhaps it was his own heart breaking at that moment he saw her running back to Jing. As Xiaoyao said, you cannot fake heartache. What she felt, he was feeling it at the same time too.
I don't know if S2 would shed more light on how the bugs actually work, but even the author covers for the mystery of the bugs using different characters as mouth pieces to say 'they don't know'.
And its because its not a clear cut thing, that is why you and I can have this discussion now.
there are so many layers to this amazing story, your reflection on XiangLiu reminded me of his fierce fiery anger…
I don't think Xiangliu regrets his choice. He had been with Hong jiang for centuries but other than that one moment with Xiaoyao as Fangfeng Bei where he asks if she would leave with him, he had never again brought it up as Xiangliu to her. It was a pity because that was totally a 'wrong' moment, since Xiaoyao thought he was merely being unserious.
I feel that Xiangliu is very lonely. Being the only one of his kind, and he already took Hong jiang as his foster father and the Chenrong army as his family, so he was not going to turn his back on them. In the years, I think the army felt they might have a shot at destabilizing the central plains if Cang xuan's uncles had taken over, but once CX became quite the capable new King of Xiyan, that hope quickly faded away and their fate seemed sealed. Even then, after meeting someone who could tempt his heart, Xiangliu still would not leave them, that was his shackles of his 'family'.
All the characters have this shackles to their family. Cangxuan wouldn't consider killing his grandfather to take over, Xiaoyao would always want to side with Cangxuan. Tushan Jing couldn't hate his grandmother even after she betrayed him and Fenglong was bound to his twin sister Xinyue.
This really adds so much more depth to the characters.
Xiao Yao CHOSE Feng Long, but married to another woman Tushan Jing thought he knew what was best for XY and he…
So now that you don't agree with what Yangzi said, you say this right? Maybe type less and think more for yourself instead of joining in what your fellow fans all repeating to each other.
We are here to discuss but you seem like so bent on 'winning' I don't even know what you are trying to win.
1
I did not bring fandom fighting. What I brought was discussion points.
I wondered about war and fighting and if there was a point when we should not romanticize about it. I still have no real answer. But you can't stop me from wondering.
I would appreciate if you don't put words into my mouth.
As for drama, there is plenty here in MDL.
Me talking about Jing vs you guys talking about Xiangliu. Do you have more right to do that than me?
Just because you are passionate about Xiangliu and talk about him alot, does it mean I can't talk about the characters I am passionate about? Are you saying because he is more popular here, everyone else can be freely slandered so Xiangliu will look even better?
Point out to me when I dragged Xiangliu? I have made my observations on his actions. I did not add anything that is not there.
The very basis of Jing's sufferings stemmed from being filial to his grandmother who refused to let him marry the princess because she placed the clan before her grandson.
Even after she set him up and ruined his chance at happiness forever, he still gave her the respect she was due as a widow who had worked her whole life for centuries for the Tushan family.
As for all the journey for your 'anti-heroes' none of them could have succeeded without Tushan Jing.
Just because he was in the background not seeking praise because all he wanted was Xiaoyao, you guys really just write him off.
Tushan Jing is literally the Kingmaker of LYF.
Without his funding and plans, would Cangxuan have been able to get to the throne staying behind in Xiyan? Would Fenglong be able to break out from the chains of his clan and enter the court to seek his political aspirations? During the years of his coma, those two were at the verge of collapse because they had no funds.
Would even the Chenrong army have survived for all these extra centuries, without necessary food, weapons or supplies?
Now you even try to make him look like a 'bad guy' for helping the Lirong clan who had been abandoned by every other family in Chenrong, because they had been closely affiliated with the Chenrong army.
Maybe you should be asking, is why the Lirong family were into underground gambling and death cage fighting, if they had options to do proper business in the open, they probably would have. Which was also why Jing introduced his friend to Cangxuan, future king, so they can improve their clans future.
Tushan Jing is not perfect, but some of you really won't stop with the character assassination just because Xiangliu was not the one Xiaoyao chose.
Here is what TH really said about LYF :
She said there is no true love without a proper foundation. That was why she spent such a long time writing about Xiaoliu and Shiqi's days in Qingshui town.
Also, the leads for LYF are Cangxuan and Xiaoyao.
TH's inspiration for LYF is from Jin Yong's novel 【雪山飞狐】
She wanted to explore how two orphans set on different paths will be able to find their happiness in their lives.
桐华义开始想要探寻的两个孩子如何在失去父母之后，在对周围人不信任的心理中去寻找自己的幸福。。。。 小夭的幸福就是在帮助玱玹完成大业后，与值得信任和爱的人相守。
For everyone who mocks Xiaoyao for making finding true love her quest in life after helping Cangxuan ascend the throne and other achievements along the way; for Xiaoyao, to think she can trust and love someone else is precisely her character growth and her path to her freedom from her cage.
If that free will was to bind himself to Hong Jiang, set on the path of death.
I say this because in the unlikely event that Hong jiang said one day 'Guys, you know what, we don't have to fight to the death. Let's all go live on the pacific, where there are no memories.'
Xiangliu would follow him. Chenrong's war was never his. He was a free creature of the sea, not of Chenrong. He made that war his because of Hong Jiang.
If Xiangliu was 'free' why did Xiaoyao get so sad over him? It was because he was not free - he trapped himself willingly. I don't know if we can call that freewill.
Jing was the only one who did not end up a prisoner of negative feelings. He chose to be free of it. Even though he still had trauma from his torture, he did not live in the shadow of it.
As for Cangxuan, the poor guy literally stuck in that cage of power he made for life, unable to follow his heart's truest desire.
I really don't see finding true love and living blissfully for as long as they both shall live, as cursed in 'co-dependency'. You made finding a partner of their own choice, to spend their lives with sound like a crime.
What the novel and the drama is obviously showing is something we as the audience can and should interpret for ourselves.
When Xiaoyao made her choices at the points of time, she did not know how things was going to end. She made those choices anyway.
To claim she only did it because of 'stated condition' is already a mistake, since that condition is obviously not met at those times.
We have the overall perspective since we finished the story but during the story, the characters are all stumbling around in the dark. Who really knew what was going to happen next?
I would even say XL is bordering on being a voyeur ( S2 revelation ) which is truly disgusting... But 'sacrifices' have to be made, for Hong jiang and Chenrong army!
When you see Wolong ads, pls remember me.
Xiaoyao will be very happy too with the true love she breaks all her conditions for, thank you.
After their breakup he didn't even know she suffered heartache over him. He didn't think she really loved him that deeply.
Xiaoyao remembered how Xiangliu tried to force her to kiss him, and pulling Jing underwater was her way to try to get Jing to kiss her again.
Xiaoyao only wanted kisses from Jing. I can't believe so many people buy into this 'she was thinking of kissing Xiangliu when she kissing Jing' bs.
When Jing said ' you don't have me in your eyes' he meant the situation was not romantic and they were not kissing because of the mood or the feelings.
Not the Lovers bug again... if you can't tell what is real love that TH is trying to tell us.. then you are missing the whole point of LYF.
True love is something two people have to work towards to make it happen.
You can have all kinds of advantages: like Cangxuan was already in Xiaoyao's heart and been her number 1 for years, Xiangliu got that couple bug; but if you don't work towards it, you won't get it.
I am sure Xiangliu is so thrilled that the woman he wanted a kiss from is thinking about how Jing left her and she had no more reason to save her lips from another man anymore... and so she decided to get CPR instead of drowning again. Real romantic thoughts... she wants Xiangliu so bad... wow...
This is the major issue with yaoliu fans. You always interpret physical, even forced physical contact as something Xiaoyao enjoyed or wanted.
It's not like I went into your yaoliu threads to make my claims...
You have your views, I have mine and I can share them out here at least.
Don't worry about my reading. I have read the Chinese novel extensively over the past year ( I don't need translated version) and also read the leaked script. I just can't stand you people trying to drag Xiaoyao and Tushan Jing just because Xiaoyao never chose Xiangliu.
And Xiaoyao was healed by the end of the story btw. She didn't choose TSJ just because she was 'sick and co-dependant'.
As we can see, she has many options.
The trope of a 'dear cousin', who is so deeply in love with her, he's willing to give up his own personal happiness so she can remain safe in the kingdom he will build.
The trope of 'falling for the enemy', the one repeatedly 'forbidden' by her grandfather, father.
Most times this type of 'advice' from elders would trigger a response to act contrary to their words but Xiaoyao is not that kind of female lead and she could control herself not to let her feelings for Xiangliu pass a certain boundary.
The trope TH used eventually for LYF is the trope where we see often in Cdrama or Kdramas, where the female lead runs into her love interest and saves his life, but neither will know each other's 'true identities' so it can keep the reason they will fall for each other 'pure' and not affected by material interests. Everything TH timed is to keep the yaojing relationship pure, up and including TSJ's confession, before she was revealed to be the Grand princess.
When Xiaoyao talked about marriage with her grandfather, the first person she mentioned indirectly was TSJ, with his engagement. The second person she mentioned was Xiangliu, with his enemy status.
Her grandfather suggested to her a third option, which would become Fenglong - the perfect partner but a loveless union.
Poor Cangxuan sitting by the side lines watching everything, constantly offering to be her eternal companion but did Xiaoyao ever include him as an 'option'?
Ye Shiqi has always been her first choice.
To be blunt, Xiangliu was more like a backup.
But probably better than Cangxuan who was a backup based on familial ties.
Every time Xiaoyao was happy with TSJ, she never seem to remember XL. But he was there for her during her breakup period, and he was a comfortable friend. I enjoyed their buddy vibes on the beach where Xiaoyao shot him that dirty look when he casually offered to kill ffyy and her child.
The only thing I see Xiaoyao having 'no choice' over is how she cannot forget her Ye Shiqi, her Tushan Jing. Because her feelings for him just cannot be controlled by cold reason.
She needs no magic mirrors with TSJ, he has branded onto her soul and haunts her dreams with phantom sweet kisses.
I just hope with all the changes in S2, we can still get a good and reasonable development of the story. 4 more days left!
Tong hua has said in her interview that all the characters in LYF suffered from lovesickness, but Lost You Forever is for him.
This is because LYF is a sequel from Once Promised, which was about the past generation, and LYF focus on the lives of the two royal orphans - Cangxuan and Xiaoyao, which continued from that story.
So typically the stories will be like, the controller who usually wants to take over the world have the mother bug, and the children bug who are in the other hosts will be able to make them do their bidding.
I believe the most recent case I seen them appear was Mysterious Lotus Casebook.
When they were first planted on Cangxuan, did the bugs accept the criteria because he loved Xiaoyao as family? He did not give consent so it was temporary but the bugs did accept that he was a candidate.
Cangxuan's love for Xiaoyao only changed into a romantic nature after he saw her as a beautiful woman again, or do you think he actually had 'feelings' for the little girl from 200 years ago?
I don't think the bugs have turned into heartbreak bugs, because Xiaoyao would have suffered backlash as well and she had no spirit power to suppress them. But does anyone really know how the bugs assess what is 'love'? Do they feed on the feelings of their hosts or just hang around in their bodies? Do they have a tipping point when they feel 'hey this is not love'. Or its more of just the conditions of 'installation' for the man to accept the bugs and later on the life and death part is just through their connection.
Maybe it a couple was really 'in love' the bug connection would be able to link them and make them truly 'as one' in mind.
So in theory if the man changed his mind and fell for another, the woman will feel pain and anger and so she can torture him with the pain she is feeling? And if she was vengeful and decides to kill herself she can take the man along with her? Which is why I always felt the couple bugs is not romantic at all, its sometimes more like a threat in a relationship.
Or maybe the couple bugs are usually fine and require no sustenance but I feel that is unlikely. When they had no hosts, Xiaoyao had to use her own blood to feed the bugs. So after they live in their bodies, what kind of toll would they demand?
But what was clear in that moment when Xiangliu floored Xiaoyao with pain that was like 'a sword to her heart' perhaps it was his own heart breaking at that moment he saw her running back to Jing. As Xiaoyao said, you cannot fake heartache. What she felt, he was feeling it at the same time too.
I don't know if S2 would shed more light on how the bugs actually work, but even the author covers for the mystery of the bugs using different characters as mouth pieces to say 'they don't know'.
And its because its not a clear cut thing, that is why you and I can have this discussion now.
It was a pity because that was totally a 'wrong' moment, since Xiaoyao thought he was merely being unserious.
I feel that Xiangliu is very lonely. Being the only one of his kind, and he already took Hong jiang as his foster father and the Chenrong army as his family, so he was not going to turn his back on them. In the years, I think the army felt they might have a shot at destabilizing the central plains if Cang xuan's uncles had taken over, but once CX became quite the capable new King of Xiyan, that hope quickly faded away and their fate seemed sealed. Even then, after meeting someone who could tempt his heart, Xiangliu still would not leave them, that was his shackles of his 'family'.
All the characters have this shackles to their family.
Cangxuan wouldn't consider killing his grandfather to take over, Xiaoyao would always want to side with Cangxuan. Tushan Jing couldn't hate his grandmother even after she betrayed him and Fenglong was bound to his twin sister Xinyue.
This really adds so much more depth to the characters.
Maybe type less and think more for yourself instead of joining in what your fellow fans all repeating to each other.
We are here to discuss but you seem like so bent on 'winning' I don't even know what you are trying to win.