What a phenomenal read.👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Your review mirrors Whispers of Fate itself layered, precise,…
Thank you for your reply, which is a mini-poetical review in itself :D I'll definitely rewatch in Q1 2026! Timeless classic for me that resonates emotionally and mentally, and definitely my #1 historical costume C-drama of all time. No historical costume drama has ever ventured so compellingly and innovatively into all areas of Chinese culture and history so strongly, to blend xuanhuan and wuxia.
Tang Lici is a compelling protagonist and hero who will always stay with viewers enjoying the efforts for SLY. Art of Tang Lici this month on weibo: https://m.weibo.cn/detail/5243098717229895
Tomorrow Youku will announce the official date of airing for LYX's soon-to-air modern drama. I'm happy for him to continue acting in quality dramas and for the upcoming new drama, Liu Ya-se is a FL that acts well.
Got mixed feelings about Case 2. Really enjoyed the first case XD
It helps that the Director for this Season 4 is 郭世民 and not 柏杉 with 信鹏 (they helmed seasons 1 to 3), because mini-dramas need to be filmed differently. Main screenwriter is the same chap.
Very curious about Season 5. Still trying to articulate my thoughts about the second case which is ??!! but made me hungry at the start XD
I really appreciate this review for voicing what I felt. S2 is supposed to be better than S1. I'd say S4 is best for a new viewer, before going into S1. Yingtao's character in S1 was rather one-dimensional and I couldn't get why she became interested in Su Wuming.
Strange Chronicles of Tang (season 4 of SToTD) is out. It's a mini-drama of 21 episodes. Curious what you think about that. I'm currently at episode 19.
Damn. I was hella entertained and drawn in. I love Tang LiCi’s character. I noticed a lot of references to what…
Liu Yan isn't comfortable with beating around the bush and not understanding something, when he is being addressed. Opera is too indirect for him. And he didn't get how Gui Mudan was mocking him and totally disrespecting him in that exchange.
Buddhism is quite heavy in this drama, which at least four reviews will attest to. TaraVerde did an amazing write-up here that is fully encompassed in three links to three reddit posts with images + screenshots pertaining to the arts, aesthetics and philosophies of this drama.
Enjoy your next C-drama! If you're looking for something intriguing in a different light, try "Strange Chronicles of Tang", an investigative historical costume mini-drama of 21 episodes that is done airing for IQiyi VIP members.
For 17 November, Tang Lici’s solo tag on douyin had approximately 700 million views. The closest thing to a romance pairing for him had 5.38 million views.
If you want accurate statistics on this drama, kwanto or suzuko_d_law can provide those. They are good with data. kwanto was very good at debunking why Yunhe's data is totally unreliable for this drama.
I won't lie A'Shei was not as "useless" people seem to perceive her. She was every smart, seemed to understood…
I would like to point out something about the novel that a lot of people don't know. It was unfinished and abandoned for more then ten years by the author, when the novel was adapted for the drama. The author did not like this novel and spoke disparagingly about the characters.
It was after the unfinished novel was adapted for the drama that the author picked it up again. Luo Yunxi's performance as Tang Lici moved Teng Ping greatly.
When it was re-adopted, the author followed some aspects of the screenplay to finish her novel.
To say Tang Lici was in love with A-Shui by the end of the novel is not conclusive. To say Tang Lici loved A-Shui in the unfinished novel before the novel was adapted for the drama is definitely untrue.
There are viewers before you who watched this drama, and wondered about the maternal vibes they were getting in terms of why Tang Lici seemed mostly unmoved by A-Shui even in episodes 33 to 35, plus wondered about Tang Lici's relationship with a mother. Once I provided the context for the necessary, they realised why they picked up on what they saw, and why there is no romance tag for this drama.
The viewer who has been primarily selling A-Shui and Tang Lici as a CP for this drama in numerous replies to you over the past four days hasn't watched further than episode 21 of this drama, when asked by multiple viewers about her claims pertaining to them. She has also twisted the words of viewers that resulted in those viewers no longer wanting to engage her in any way. She has attacked BL shippers, who also don't want to talk to her. I was once fine with her on this drama page, such as when she asked me about what Gui Mudan was saying in episode 14 (she needed to use MTL to translate but for Gui Mudan's lines, it is impossible to use any machine to translate the lines of a Yuan zaju). So I explained to her and her sockpuppet account.
However, she has twisted my words when talking about A-Shui to another viewer and as a result, I told her off for being dishonest. I have told her to stop harassing me with her multiple sockpuppet accounts. Multiple people have told her off for being dishonest. For at least the past four weeks, she has been mostly talking to herself on this page because no one wants to engage her.
But she has no qualms misleading viewers new to this drama, primarily because nobody wants to talk to her after how badly she behaved. On the TTEOM page on this website, nobody wants to talk to her either.
She led a bunch of fans for a specific actress to this page based on misleading them and selling this drama as a CP with romance, people who expressed opinions supportive of other actresses on this page were attacked by these fans, and then the end results of episodes 33 to 35 was upsetting enough that this drama page saw melodrama from fans of one actress who didn't get their expectations met when at least one producer said much earlier by end-2023 that this drama is heroism-focused. All this of course, you've thankfully missed.
Zhong Chunji has the greatest screentime and impact on other characters so if one wants to pick an FL, she would be the FL. Zhong Chunji isn't my favourite female character, yet Tang Lici tells her about what he was in the Celestial Realm including knowing nothing about emotions and not learning from Fang Zhou how to love someone. In that same episode after he rejects her, he watches fireworks with A-Shui. What he doesn't tell anybody else including Shen Langhun and Chi Yun is that he has chosen to die for Fang Zhou so after the fireworks in episode 29, he goes to Shui Duopo and confides in her his deepest desires pertaining to Fang Zhou.
A-Shui doesn't have the greatest weight in this drama also because she has minimal impact or importance to other characters. There are no FLs. This drama is originally only one lead which is LYX, and the rest are supporting cast.
I will quote a section of chapter 40 for you, which comes from the unfinished section of the novel before the novel was adopted for the drama (so you can be very clear about how novel-Tang Lici sees novel-A-Shui. Novel-Liu Yan is the one who liked A-Shui, not Tang Lici). I don't like insisting on romance for WoF even if I claim you can ship whoever you want. Luo Yunxi has chemistry with a lot of the cast, so shipping whoever you want with him is doable.
But viewers generally expect certain things when it comes to the "romance" label, and then they are rightfully disappointed when it doesn't happen according to expectations. Romance (one-sided or two-sided) is up to the viewer, because even a one-sided romance is romance. I will never claim a CP for the drama, just as I can never claim there is definitely love between Tang Lici and A-Shui.
By the way, for giving up that fragment of the Divine Stone to help Tang Lici, Tang Lici doesn't know A-Shui will die and her letter is meant to also hide that. Why are episodes 33 and 35 so restrained for Tang Lici? The directors and screenwriters are definitely aware of this section of the unfinished novel, hence they granted drama-Tang Lici the greatest obsession of novel-Tang Lici in the drama. The exchange in episode 35 was so wonderfully conveyed. I had a lot of emotional sand in my eyes because Tang Lici met the most important woman in his life, and he never wanted to let go. That is why she is whom he thought of, near the end of episode 40. Several other viewers here also felt the same way, especially those who are aware of the unfinished novel.
Remember Wanyu Yuedan? From Book 4, Chapter 40 (part 3):
[ “Be at ease. Master Tang has already gone.” Wanyu Yuedan bent low, clasping her hand with a steady, reassuring smile.
Ah Shui froze. At those words, the world seemed to reel around her. “He… he’s already gone?”
Wanyu Yuedan inclined his head. “As soon as he awoke and learned you had led Brother Shen and Zhu Yan to storm Wangting Manor, he set out at once. Do not fear. With Master Tang there, none will come to harm.”
She stared at him.
“But… his health…” Her voice trembled.
Wanyu Yuedan raised a finger and traced a small circle beside his temple, still smiling gently. “It was merely agitation. I gave him a calming draught, and he drank the rice soup you made. Already he is better than before. Rest assured, when Master Tang is present, he will never allow anyone to be hurt. He is the kind of man who will stake his very life for others. And with his ability… tell me, what can he not achieve, once he throws his life into it?”
Ah Shui gazed at Wanyu Yuedan in a daze. How could he speak with such certainty—so matter-of-factly—when he said that Tang Lici was the kind of man who will stake his life for others?
“He…”
Wanyu Yuedan drew out a handkerchief and slowly wiped the mud and melted snow from her face. His voice was gentle as he went on,”I once knew another man who would risk his life for those who had nothing to do with him. He did so out of compassion. He was kind to everyone, wished happiness for all, and for that ideal he was willing to stake his life. A man like that is easy to love, easy to praise.
“But Young Master Tang is not like that. He risks his life for others not because of compassion, but because he is fragile.”
Ah Shui blinked slowly. Meltwater pooled at the corners of her eyes, turning everything into a blur. She heard Wanyu Yuedan’s voice, gentle as falling snow:
“He is too lonely, too starved for care. That is why he throws himself into saving others. Through saving them… he gains a sliver of fulfillment, a sense that he matters. He could not let go of Fang Zhou, nor of Liu Yan, and he fought desperately to save Chi Yun—because so few have ever truly cared for him. The ones who do, he engraves upon his heart, and he cannot bear to let them slip away.
“But few truly understand him. His emotions flare too fiercely, and most people are afraid of him. He always seems as though he alone can shoulder the work of dozens, even hundreds. As though if he exists, others need not. Yet the truth is otherwise. He is only too lonely. He needs that lofty posture… because he longs so desperately to be cared for, to be valued. He cannot live as ordinary men do.”
I… I have been so foolish all along. Tears slid down Ah Shui’s cheeks. “Yes…”
Wanyu Yuedan sighed softly. “I will say something I perhaps should not. Miss Ah Shui, you cannot go on without truly understanding Master Tang. I believe the reason he clings to you is not for any other cause, but because you… you carry within you something of a mother’s presence.”
Once again, tears spilled from Ah Shui’s eyes. She could no longer tell whether they were caused by snowmelt or sadness.
“I understand now.”
This gentle young man, seeing her for the first time, seemed able to pierce through every veil of mist. At last she understood what Tang Lici sought from her. At last she understood why he yearned for a love that would “die for him.” At last she understood why, though he treated her so well, she had never felt he loved her—and why did it always left her so disappointed.
So…
So that was it.
Only that, and nothing more.
She broke down and wept, collapsing to the ground in anguish. He had wanted only a mother who would die for him. And she—she had mistaken it all along.
She could never be his mother. And though she had cared for him with all her heart, still… still… what he longed for was only a mother, nothing else, nothing beyond.
Thank you for lending us your insight. I really loved how they wove the schools of thought together with historical…
There are dramas and movies of different languages from different countries that I believe is best appreciated by the older viewer and/or the viewer who comes to these dramas or movies with a literary and/or a history background, preferably a literary and/or a history background in at least two languages.
Writers Dostoevsky and Trevor understand the human condition very well, but express themselves very differently. William Trevor is one of my favourite authors writing about small-town Irish life, blending wry dark humour with a wonderful understanding of women and small town lives. His incisively wise style of writing came to mind when I was watching this drama. He very carefully and skilfully allows his voice to become quiet and his characters to fill the spaces thereby drawing in the reader, his words are succinct, and he has compassion towards his characters.
When Fang Zhou teaches that all human beings are born inherently good, how can one believe that, least of all Tang Lici? In philosophical Taoism, another section of《道德经》is about withholding judgment and being careful with judgment. Tang Lici learns to truly exercise wisdom in judgement by episode 40. And he comes to that through experiences with different people, which the directing of the screenplay allows for unfolding in the good and evil of those who oppose him and those who support him.
There are dramas that allow the audiences to see the characters for what they are, being portrayed as accurately as possible yet with compassion. Bad deeds and characters are not whitewashed, intentions allowed to be organically revealed. One of them is "Beloved", a modern drama of investigative suspense with heavy human psychological elements (and a happy ending) under the IQiyi Light On series. Another one is this drama.
There are aspects of Confucianism I don't agree with, given his views of women are delineated within some very specific mores of a patriarchal and patrilineal social structure. But if I look via the wuxia aspect of family being chosen being more important than blood ties, Zhong Chunji's warmth and protectiveness of A-Shui and in turn, A-Shui's gentleness tempering Zhong Chunji's impulsiveness is very endearing.
The exploration of relationships between different people in varying shades as the primary factor of relationships rather than romance is very heartening and interesting, especially when the drama loosely adapts an unfinished novel that was abandoned for more than ten years and not considered fondly by its author. This focus on the human condition, especially of Tang Lici, is what interests me given my literary interests also centred on the human condition.
Azure, I appreciate what you share. Every time there's something to surprise me:
[ As we explore this world further, we will see more and more things that go beyond the good and evil, transcending duality, ultimately letting go of attachments, recognizing their impermanence, and embracing Emptiness (Śūnyatā) to end the Cycle of Rebirth (Saṃsāra) and attain Liberation (Nirvana).
What truly heals you is never time but understanding; nothing can be taken away or retained, only Karma stays with us. Causality seldom forgives. Regardless of whether others love him or not, whether someone is right or wrong, Tang Lici loves everyone, simply loving everything, needing nothing in return, in this way, he becomes the compassion (Karuṇā) himself, the most primitive power in the universe. ] - You saw one step further than me on Karuṇā, and I greatly appreciate it.
SLY is a drama that will never end. I didn't know it, but it is the historical costumes C-drama I have been waiting for, for my entire life. And this isn't easy to say, when I know what I do.
In the wuxia genre, the pugilistic world (江湖) with its power struggles plus hypocrisy is a key theme in Jin Yong’s classic wuxia novels. However, this world does not exist without its solid anchoring of social values. “Whispers of Fate” is a rare drama strongly melding xuanhuan and wuxia genres that is unabashedly Chinese, so much so that the creative team makes classical literature evident in the concepts conveyed via the camerawork and fight choreography.
This isn’t going to be evident to non-mandarin speakers who never read or cannot read at least three sources providing the fundamental insight needed for “Whispers of Fate”.
Wuxia is not about men or women fighting in an epic martial arts world. In our chinese history and classical literature, Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism are the Three Schools of Thought (三教), and the three schools of thought are the foundations of this drama, especially Confucianism.
SLY is heroism-focused and solidly displays the foundations of wuxia values, because the importance of brothers is emphasised in the four main relationships between Tang Lici and the four characters of Fang Zhou, Liu Yan, Shen Langhun and Chi Yun.
In my review, one of the first sentences I stated was, “An unusual protagonist with key themes of brotherhood, camaraderie and conflict are buoyed by a delicately-woven map of Taoism and Buddhism philosophy studded with Confucian elements.”
I also added near the end:
“Underpinning it all is this observation from《道德經 》:
「故有無相生，難易相成，長短相較，高下相傾，音聲相和，前後相隨。」”
《诗经》(Book of Odes) attributed to Confucius holds the worldview that would have applied to the Jianghu of Whispers of Fate, and Confucius was attributed as using《诗经》to teach morals and philosophy. To understand its importance, you must have a certain amount of awareness and understanding of the Analects of Confucius.
There is this anecdote in the Analects of Confucius about how Confucius viewed《诗经》whereby it goes that one day, his son was passing hurriedly through the Court and saw his father standing alone, lost in thought. Upon seeing his son, Confucius said, "Have you read the Odes?"
"Not yet" was his son's reply.
"Then," said Confucius, "if you do not learn the Odes, you will not be fit to converse with."
The poem《小雅·常棣》in《诗经》(Book of Odes) illustrates the fundamental importance of brotherhood, as per how the likes of Tang Lici, Shen Langhun and others in the pugilistic world would have viewed brotherhood as per the Five Bonds defined by Confucius.
Within the first two lines of that poem, it states “凡今之人，莫如兄弟” which means in this world, there are none closer and more worthy of being cherished than brothers (兄弟), and we see so many examples of brotherhood being celebrated and cherished throughout this drama. Wuxia is acts of chivalry as part of ties between brothers especially those who choose brothers not by blood, moral codes and martial arts. If you have martial arts in historical costumes without everything else, it’s just fighting and nothing to do with wuxia.
Virtues tied to brotherhood in various acts (such as acts of chivalry seen by Zhong Chunji saving A-Shui in episode 1) are the underlying themes for the Jianghu of this drama.
I also stated, “Ming Dynasty literature utilising Three Schools of Thought formed the basis of many weapon designs and concepts, especially sonic techniques of Tang Lici and Liu Yan.”
In another important classical literature source for Whispers for Fate,《溪山琴况》(Zither Theory of Mountain Streams) written by 徐上瀛 (Xu Shangying) is the masterpiece of a famous zither master in the late-Ming and early-Qing Dynasties. This is the basis of the sonic techniques for Liu Yan, Tang Lici, Fang Zhou and Hong-guniang, which has been heavily utilised for the battles. If you do not understand the Three Schools of Thought to a certain extent in Mandarin, you cannot appreciate this classical literature source.
The concepts of attaining "道法自然" and “高山流水”in playing the qin (zither) has its foundations in《道德经》that I quoted, to fully portray the aesthetic ideas of the qin. If you are a guzheng player like me or a guqin player, these concepts will be particularly appreciated.
"the string and finger unite, and the finger and tone unite" is the ideal.
"吾复求其和者三，曰弦与指合 ，指与音合，音与意合，而和至矣。"
[ The three ways I seek harmony: strings and fingers are in union, the fingers are in union with the sound, the sound is in union with the meaning, and harmony is perfected. ] - Disparate elements uniting as one in non-duality is grounded in Buddhism here.
Another section of the text by Xu Shangying goes "指法有重则有轻，如天地之有阴阳也；有迟则有速，如四时之有寒暑也。盖迟为速之 纲，速为迟之纪，当相间错而不离。"
[ In finger techniques if heaviness is present, so too is lightness, just as between heaven and earth exists yin and yang; if there is slowness. so too is quickness, just as in the four seasons there is cold and heat. Slowness is the measure for quickness, quickness is the context for slowness, they must be interspersed and not separated. ] - Taking small liberties with translation but it comes out better this way to capture the essence also from an English grammatical POV. This matches what I quoted from the famous philosophical work of Lao Zi, which is part of what I had to study growing up as a kid for Mandarin.
That paragraph is the holistic relationship pertaining to co-existence of duality in Taoism, not one to vanquish the other. Don’t forget the Confucian thinking pertaining to 中和 of having a holistic view of all possibilities while balancing disparate and/or diverse elements.
Tang Lici and Liu Yan are not simply playing with strings and waving their sleeves in beautiful scenery. The scenes of their musical battles appear to be framed and shot with all this in mind as per the cinematography and fight choreography, which is also why I mentioned in my review about the camerawork being specific.
Understanding at least the classical literature I have mentioned above is to have a very clear understanding of the rich emotional depth evident in this drama, woven into the screenplay and production process.
What has been shared in the relationships of Tang Lici with Fang Zhou, Liu Yan, Shen Langhun and Chi Yun, reciprocal and developed? You see everything about the ties of brothers chosen not by blood but by virtues, all beautifully fleshed out in joy and pain, kindness and heartbreak. What does Tang Lici care for, about the pugilistic world? Tang Lici's emotional core of 侠义 based on 三教 is demonstrated across the drama and becomes his key weapon to break the shackles of fate. Other pugilists such as the Sword Masters of the Central Plains Sword Alliance, the Yanmen sect etc, all demonstrate 侠义 by episode 32. 侠义 is essential to the wuxia genre.
I’m not thinking first and foremost of CP and romance, when I'm admiring how the Three Schools is amazingly incorporated in Whispers of Fate, and awed by how well the foundations of this drama has been carried out. Movies such as 1983’s “Zu: Warriors of The Magic Mountain” and 1993’s “Green Snake” require understanding of Mandarin plus the Three Schools plus a certain extent of Chinese culture and history, otherwise the basis and aesthetics of these iconic movies simply cannot be appreciated in its entirety and certain fundamentals are definitely overlooked.
Whispers of Fate falls in this very-Chinese category, which I am very thankful for. If someone is going to claim they see no wuxia in this drama, or “Mysterious Lotus Casebook” is wuxia but not Whispers of Fate, or why isn’t Tang Lici paired with someone otherwise he’s wasted due to unsatisfying romance in this drama because nothing else worthwhile seems to exist for this drama except the extent or lack of a “romance” between Tang Lici and A-Shui- My first unexpected reaction is to laugh, because it tells me a lot about ignorance in the opinion being proffered. I'm pretty sure you can find better views than mine, but you'll have to go on weibo for them.
I was just looking for you, wondering if I should tell you it dropped the first case, lol
The very important well-executed aspects of Season 4 (6 episodes in) are a perfect showcase for new viewers who consider it daunting to attempt to step into SToTD.
Mini-dramas and vertical dramas are money-spinners. And everybody is IC, investigative work unfolds naturally, suspense maintained, no political intrigues (those who didn't like S3 as much as S1 and S2 was because of the political intrigue). Very good for new viewers to dive in and enjoy the humour and plot, because the unfolding of who's who and the characters (good and bad and grey) are very well done from a narrative POV :)
Binging this as a mini-drama is easy. Season 4 as a mini-drama helps new viewers believe that binging earlier seasons in longform versions after this drama eg Season 1 will also be easy.
Absolutely gorgeous hues throughout day and night scenes, and compellingly paced! Happy to see 14 episodes have aired (halfway through episode 2 and partially cracking up at Su Wuming's situation, but sleep beckons). Looking forward to binging this!
I won't lie A'Shei was not as "useless" people seem to perceive her. She was every smart, seemed to understood…
The "romance" depends on who's watching. Some saw them having a romance, others saw no romance. Tang Lici's mostly-composed reactions in episode 33 (for example, from 33:46 to 34:15) and episode 35 can be interpreted either way, and it's never a good thing for a "romance" in a drama when that's the case.
Your reaction is remarkably unique and mature in nuancing about how you interpret romance here, because there were a lot of upset fans for one actress due to episodes 33 and 35, and they didn't sound anything like you.
Episode 19 was literally the most cringe-y thing ever, pertaining to lines from A-Shui. There were loopholes to accommodate A-Shui's presence in the drama, and here are various opinions from different viewers:
When we talk about love, it depends on what love we are referring to. Some viewers inferred that the love Tang Lici was most lacking and most needed was maternal (that's also in the unfinished novel before it was adapted for this drama). Others say romance was what helped him learn. If A-Shui was indeed supposed to teach him about romantic love, then the way things have turned out taught Tang Lici he doesn't need romantic love. What he does in episode 39 (38:25 to 38:47) caught me by surprise.
At the end of the day, your reaction confirms that the producers did a good job walking that thin line of pleasing all three factions :D
Yeah, I kind of agree with you. A Shui did get a little annoying in the show. I didn't hate her or anything, but…
Tang Lici's four main relationships are with Fang Zhou, Liu Yan, Shen Langhun and Chi Yun, which cements a Confucian element from one specific classical literature source about the importance of brotherhood amongst the Five Bonds.
When the first fifteen episodes aired, I at first defended A-Shui's inclusion. I thought she was bright, her indirect contributions were helpful- And then holes started appearing for her to be able show up at certain times and places in the drama. None of my offline friends support A-Shui's inclusion because they couldn't accept her portrayal as a female character being too cringe-y for them at times plus they didn't see the value of having her in the drama when certain storylines could have been strengthened without her.
There are viewers who believe there was romance, but there are viewers who also didn't see any romance between A-Shui and Tang Lici. It was the kind of "romance" that pleased the no-romance faction which if one puts it nicely, the producers walked a thin line to please all factions and hence led to the biggest complaints coming from fans of a certain actress about the disappointing outcome of Tang Lici having no CP.
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I'll definitely rewatch in Q1 2026! Timeless classic for me that resonates emotionally and mentally, and definitely my #1 historical costume C-drama of all time. No historical costume drama has ever ventured so compellingly and innovatively into all areas of Chinese culture and history so strongly, to blend xuanhuan and wuxia.
Tang Lici is a compelling protagonist and hero who will always stay with viewers enjoying the efforts for SLY. Art of Tang Lici this month on weibo: https://m.weibo.cn/detail/5243098717229895
Also compilation efforts by fellow fans (you should see the video, if you haven't already): https://m.weibo.cn/detail/5239451669236288
Tomorrow Youku will announce the official date of airing for LYX's soon-to-air modern drama. I'm happy for him to continue acting in quality dramas and for the upcoming new drama, Liu Ya-se is a FL that acts well.
Looking forward to this!
Very curious about Season 5. Still trying to articulate my thoughts about the second case which is ??!! but made me hungry at the start XD
Strange Chronicles of Tang (season 4 of SToTD) is out. It's a mini-drama of 21 episodes. Curious what you think about that. I'm currently at episode 19.
Buddhism is quite heavy in this drama, which at least four reviews will attest to. TaraVerde did an amazing write-up here that is fully encompassed in three links to three reddit posts with images + screenshots pertaining to the arts, aesthetics and philosophies of this drama.
In November 2023, RBF shared a very-important writeup about the poster on MDL synopsis page, pertaining to fundamental details about Tang Lici which is also reflected in the ending of the drama (spoilers for episode 40 which won't affect you, since you finished watching): https://kisskh.at/discussions/shui-long-yin/121095-sly-art-poster-analysis-slight-spoilers?pid=2851189&page=1#p2851189
Enjoy your next C-drama! If you're looking for something intriguing in a different light, try "Strange Chronicles of Tang", an investigative historical costume mini-drama of 21 episodes that is done airing for IQiyi VIP members.
For 17 November, Tang Lici’s solo tag on douyin had approximately 700 million views. The closest thing to a romance pairing for him had 5.38 million views.
If you want accurate statistics on this drama, kwanto or suzuko_d_law can provide those. They are good with data. kwanto was very good at debunking why Yunhe's data is totally unreliable for this drama.
It was after the unfinished novel was adapted for the drama that the author picked it up again. Luo Yunxi's performance as Tang Lici moved Teng Ping greatly.
When it was re-adopted, the author followed some aspects of the screenplay to finish her novel.
To say Tang Lici was in love with A-Shui by the end of the novel is not conclusive. To say Tang Lici loved A-Shui in the unfinished novel before the novel was adapted for the drama is definitely untrue.
There are viewers before you who watched this drama, and wondered about the maternal vibes they were getting in terms of why Tang Lici seemed mostly unmoved by A-Shui even in episodes 33 to 35, plus wondered about Tang Lici's relationship with a mother. Once I provided the context for the necessary, they realised why they picked up on what they saw, and why there is no romance tag for this drama.
The viewer who has been primarily selling A-Shui and Tang Lici as a CP for this drama in numerous replies to you over the past four days hasn't watched further than episode 21 of this drama, when asked by multiple viewers about her claims pertaining to them. She has also twisted the words of viewers that resulted in those viewers no longer wanting to engage her in any way. She has attacked BL shippers, who also don't want to talk to her. I was once fine with her on this drama page, such as when she asked me about what Gui Mudan was saying in episode 14 (she needed to use MTL to translate but for Gui Mudan's lines, it is impossible to use any machine to translate the lines of a Yuan zaju). So I explained to her and her sockpuppet account.
Zaju recited by Gui Mudan (context plus mandarin and English translation):
https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24049694
https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24049698
Interpretation of Gui Mudan in episode 14 referencing two works including that zaju:
https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24049658
However, she has twisted my words when talking about A-Shui to another viewer and as a result, I told her off for being dishonest. I have told her to stop harassing me with her multiple sockpuppet accounts. Multiple people have told her off for being dishonest. For at least the past four weeks, she has been mostly talking to herself on this page because no one wants to engage her.
But she has no qualms misleading viewers new to this drama, primarily because nobody wants to talk to her after how badly she behaved. On the TTEOM page on this website, nobody wants to talk to her either.
She led a bunch of fans for a specific actress to this page based on misleading them and selling this drama as a CP with romance, people who expressed opinions supportive of other actresses on this page were attacked by these fans, and then the end results of episodes 33 to 35 was upsetting enough that this drama page saw melodrama from fans of one actress who didn't get their expectations met when at least one producer said much earlier by end-2023 that this drama is heroism-focused. All this of course, you've thankfully missed.
Zhong Chunji has the greatest screentime and impact on other characters so if one wants to pick an FL, she would be the FL. Zhong Chunji isn't my favourite female character, yet Tang Lici tells her about what he was in the Celestial Realm including knowing nothing about emotions and not learning from Fang Zhou how to love someone. In that same episode after he rejects her, he watches fireworks with A-Shui. What he doesn't tell anybody else including Shen Langhun and Chi Yun is that he has chosen to die for Fang Zhou so after the fireworks in episode 29, he goes to Shui Duopo and confides in her his deepest desires pertaining to Fang Zhou.
A-Shui doesn't have the greatest weight in this drama also because she has minimal impact or importance to other characters. There are no FLs. This drama is originally only one lead which is LYX, and the rest are supporting cast.
I will quote a section of chapter 40 for you, which comes from the unfinished section of the novel before the novel was adopted for the drama (so you can be very clear about how novel-Tang Lici sees novel-A-Shui. Novel-Liu Yan is the one who liked A-Shui, not Tang Lici). I don't like insisting on romance for WoF even if I claim you can ship whoever you want. Luo Yunxi has chemistry with a lot of the cast, so shipping whoever you want with him is doable.
But viewers generally expect certain things when it comes to the "romance" label, and then they are rightfully disappointed when it doesn't happen according to expectations. Romance (one-sided or two-sided) is up to the viewer, because even a one-sided romance is romance. I will never claim a CP for the drama, just as I can never claim there is definitely love between Tang Lici and A-Shui.
By the way, for giving up that fragment of the Divine Stone to help Tang Lici, Tang Lici doesn't know A-Shui will die and her letter is meant to also hide that. Why are episodes 33 and 35 so restrained for Tang Lici? The directors and screenwriters are definitely aware of this section of the unfinished novel, hence they granted drama-Tang Lici the greatest obsession of novel-Tang Lici in the drama. The exchange in episode 35 was so wonderfully conveyed. I had a lot of emotional sand in my eyes because Tang Lici met the most important woman in his life, and he never wanted to let go. That is why she is whom he thought of, near the end of episode 40. Several other viewers here also felt the same way, especially those who are aware of the unfinished novel.
Remember Wanyu Yuedan? From Book 4, Chapter 40 (part 3):
[ “Be at ease. Master Tang has already gone.” Wanyu Yuedan bent low, clasping her hand with a steady, reassuring smile.
Ah Shui froze. At those words, the world seemed to reel around her. “He… he’s already gone?”
Wanyu Yuedan inclined his head. “As soon as he awoke and learned you had led Brother Shen and Zhu Yan to storm Wangting Manor, he set out at once. Do not fear. With Master Tang there, none will come to harm.”
She stared at him.
“But… his health…” Her voice trembled.
Wanyu Yuedan raised a finger and traced a small circle beside his temple, still smiling gently. “It was merely agitation. I gave him a calming draught, and he drank the rice soup you made. Already he is better than before. Rest assured, when Master Tang is present, he will never allow anyone to be hurt. He is the kind of man who will stake his very life for others. And with his ability… tell me, what can he not achieve, once he throws his life into it?”
Ah Shui gazed at Wanyu Yuedan in a daze. How could he speak with such certainty—so matter-of-factly—when he said that Tang Lici was the kind of man who will stake his life for others?
“He…”
Wanyu Yuedan drew out a handkerchief and slowly wiped the mud and melted snow from her face. His voice was gentle as he went on,”I once knew another man who would risk his life for those who had nothing to do with him. He did so out of compassion. He was kind to everyone, wished happiness for all, and for that ideal he was willing to stake his life. A man like that is easy to love, easy to praise.
“But Young Master Tang is not like that. He risks his life for others not because of compassion, but because he is fragile.”
Ah Shui blinked slowly. Meltwater pooled at the corners of her eyes, turning everything into a blur. She heard Wanyu Yuedan’s voice, gentle as falling snow:
“He is too lonely, too starved for care. That is why he throws himself into saving others. Through saving them… he gains a sliver of fulfillment, a sense that he matters. He could not let go of Fang Zhou, nor of Liu Yan, and he fought desperately to save Chi Yun—because so few have ever truly cared for him. The ones who do, he engraves upon his heart, and he cannot bear to let them slip away.
“But few truly understand him. His emotions flare too fiercely, and most people are afraid of him. He always seems as though he alone can shoulder the work of dozens, even hundreds. As though if he exists, others need not. Yet the truth is otherwise. He is only too lonely. He needs that lofty posture… because he longs so desperately to be cared for, to be valued. He cannot live as ordinary men do.”
I… I have been so foolish all along. Tears slid down Ah Shui’s cheeks. “Yes…”
Wanyu Yuedan sighed softly. “I will say something I perhaps should not. Miss Ah Shui, you cannot go on without truly understanding Master Tang. I believe the reason he clings to you is not for any other cause, but because you… you carry within you something of a mother’s presence.”
Once again, tears spilled from Ah Shui’s eyes. She could no longer tell whether they were caused by snowmelt or sadness.
“I understand now.”
This gentle young man, seeing her for the first time, seemed able to pierce through every veil of mist. At last she understood what Tang Lici sought from her. At last she understood why he yearned for a love that would “die for him.” At last she understood why, though he treated her so well, she had never felt he loved her—and why did it always left her so disappointed.
So…
So that was it.
Only that, and nothing more.
She broke down and wept, collapsing to the ground in anguish. He had wanted only a mother who would die for him. And she—she had mistaken it all along.
She could never be his mother. And though she had cared for him with all her heart, still… still… what he longed for was only a mother, nothing else, nothing beyond.
And she… she could never be his mother. ]
Here are two sites: https://qianjiemei.wordpress.com/2025/09/05/chapter-40-brokenhearted-unto-despair-part-3/
https://mydramanovel.com/shui-long-yin/chapter-40-heartbroken-to-the-point-of-death-03/
I also share the mandarin link: https://www.kanunu8.com/book5/1000jiemei/17467.html
I hope all this is helpful. If you want to know more about the classical literature used for this drama, I've made a new standalone comment above.
Writers Dostoevsky and Trevor understand the human condition very well, but express themselves very differently. William Trevor is one of my favourite authors writing about small-town Irish life, blending wry dark humour with a wonderful understanding of women and small town lives. His incisively wise style of writing came to mind when I was watching this drama. He very carefully and skilfully allows his voice to become quiet and his characters to fill the spaces thereby drawing in the reader, his words are succinct, and he has compassion towards his characters.
When Fang Zhou teaches that all human beings are born inherently good, how can one believe that, least of all Tang Lici? In philosophical Taoism, another section of《道德经》is about withholding judgment and being careful with judgment. Tang Lici learns to truly exercise wisdom in judgement by episode 40. And he comes to that through experiences with different people, which the directing of the screenplay allows for unfolding in the good and evil of those who oppose him and those who support him.
There are dramas that allow the audiences to see the characters for what they are, being portrayed as accurately as possible yet with compassion. Bad deeds and characters are not whitewashed, intentions allowed to be organically revealed. One of them is "Beloved", a modern drama of investigative suspense with heavy human psychological elements (and a happy ending) under the IQiyi Light On series. Another one is this drama.
There are aspects of Confucianism I don't agree with, given his views of women are delineated within some very specific mores of a patriarchal and patrilineal social structure. But if I look via the wuxia aspect of family being chosen being more important than blood ties, Zhong Chunji's warmth and protectiveness of A-Shui and in turn, A-Shui's gentleness tempering Zhong Chunji's impulsiveness is very endearing.
The exploration of relationships between different people in varying shades as the primary factor of relationships rather than romance is very heartening and interesting, especially when the drama loosely adapts an unfinished novel that was abandoned for more than ten years and not considered fondly by its author. This focus on the human condition, especially of Tang Lici, is what interests me given my literary interests also centred on the human condition.
I hope she was able to do her own ADR, given I like her voice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PM_jj0ega8
I'm curious and very interested to see how she and LYX bounce off each other, given her presence: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/suIjP_jfJp8
[ As we explore this world further, we will see more and more things that go beyond the good and evil, transcending duality, ultimately letting go of attachments, recognizing their impermanence, and embracing Emptiness (Śūnyatā) to end the Cycle of Rebirth (Saṃsāra) and attain Liberation (Nirvana).
What truly heals you is never time but understanding; nothing can be taken away or retained, only Karma stays with us. Causality seldom forgives. Regardless of whether others love him or not, whether someone is right or wrong, Tang Lici loves everyone, simply loving everything, needing nothing in return, in this way, he becomes the compassion (Karuṇā) himself, the most primitive power in the universe. ] - You saw one step further than me on Karuṇā, and I greatly appreciate it.
SLY is a drama that will never end. I didn't know it, but it is the historical costumes C-drama I have been waiting for, for my entire life. And this isn't easy to say, when I know what I do.
I know you appreciate the wuxia concepts for SLY, so I also wrote this for non-mandarin speakers: https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24569086
This isn’t going to be evident to non-mandarin speakers who never read or cannot read at least three sources providing the fundamental insight needed for “Whispers of Fate”.
Wuxia is not about men or women fighting in an epic martial arts world. In our chinese history and classical literature, Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism are the Three Schools of Thought (三教), and the three schools of thought are the foundations of this drama, especially Confucianism.
SLY is heroism-focused and solidly displays the foundations of wuxia values, because the importance of brothers is emphasised in the four main relationships between Tang Lici and the four characters of Fang Zhou, Liu Yan, Shen Langhun and Chi Yun.
In my review, one of the first sentences I stated was, “An unusual protagonist with key themes of brotherhood, camaraderie and conflict are buoyed by a delicately-woven map of Taoism and Buddhism philosophy studded with Confucian elements.”
I also added near the end:
“Underpinning it all is this observation from《道德經 》:
「故有無相生，難易相成，長短相較，高下相傾，音聲相和，前後相隨。」”
《诗经》(Book of Odes) attributed to Confucius holds the worldview that would have applied to the Jianghu of Whispers of Fate, and Confucius was attributed as using《诗经》to teach morals and philosophy. To understand its importance, you must have a certain amount of awareness and understanding of the Analects of Confucius.
There is this anecdote in the Analects of Confucius about how Confucius viewed《诗经》whereby it goes that one day, his son was passing hurriedly through the Court and saw his father standing alone, lost in thought. Upon seeing his son, Confucius said, "Have you read the Odes?"
"Not yet" was his son's reply.
"Then," said Confucius, "if you do not learn the Odes, you will not be fit to converse with."
The poem《小雅·常棣》in《诗经》(Book of Odes) illustrates the fundamental importance of brotherhood, as per how the likes of Tang Lici, Shen Langhun and others in the pugilistic world would have viewed brotherhood as per the Five Bonds defined by Confucius.
(Link with further expansions here: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/503346409)
Within the first two lines of that poem, it states “凡今之人，莫如兄弟” which means in this world, there are none closer and more worthy of being cherished than brothers (兄弟), and we see so many examples of brotherhood being celebrated and cherished throughout this drama. Wuxia is acts of chivalry as part of ties between brothers especially those who choose brothers not by blood, moral codes and martial arts. If you have martial arts in historical costumes without everything else, it’s just fighting and nothing to do with wuxia.
Virtues tied to brotherhood in various acts (such as acts of chivalry seen by Zhong Chunji saving A-Shui in episode 1) are the underlying themes for the Jianghu of this drama.
I also stated, “Ming Dynasty literature utilising Three Schools of Thought formed the basis of many weapon designs and concepts, especially sonic techniques of Tang Lici and Liu Yan.”
In another important classical literature source for Whispers for Fate,《溪山琴况》(Zither Theory of Mountain Streams) written by 徐上瀛 (Xu Shangying) is the masterpiece of a famous zither master in the late-Ming and early-Qing Dynasties. This is the basis of the sonic techniques for Liu Yan, Tang Lici, Fang Zhou and Hong-guniang, which has been heavily utilised for the battles. If you do not understand the Three Schools of Thought to a certain extent in Mandarin, you cannot appreciate this classical literature source.
The concepts of attaining "道法自然" and “高山流水”in playing the qin (zither) has its foundations in《道德经》that I quoted, to fully portray the aesthetic ideas of the qin. If you are a guzheng player like me or a guqin player, these concepts will be particularly appreciated.
"the string and finger unite, and the finger and tone unite" is the ideal.
"吾复求其和者三，曰弦与指合 ，指与音合，音与意合，而和至矣。"
[ The three ways I seek harmony: strings and fingers are in union, the fingers are in union with the sound, the sound is in union with the meaning, and harmony is perfected. ] - Disparate elements uniting as one in non-duality is grounded in Buddhism here.
Another section of the text by Xu Shangying goes "指法有重则有轻，如天地之有阴阳也；有迟则有速，如四时之有寒暑也。盖迟为速之 纲，速为迟之纪，当相间错而不离。"
[ In finger techniques if heaviness is present, so too is lightness, just as between heaven and earth exists yin and yang; if there is slowness. so too is quickness, just as in the four seasons there is cold and heat. Slowness is the measure for quickness, quickness is the context for slowness, they must be interspersed and not separated. ] - Taking small liberties with translation but it comes out better this way to capture the essence also from an English grammatical POV. This matches what I quoted from the famous philosophical work of Lao Zi, which is part of what I had to study growing up as a kid for Mandarin.
That paragraph is the holistic relationship pertaining to co-existence of duality in Taoism, not one to vanquish the other. Don’t forget the Confucian thinking pertaining to 中和 of having a holistic view of all possibilities while balancing disparate and/or diverse elements.
Hence another section of 《溪山琴况》 states:
"不轻不重者，中和之音也。起调当以中和为主，而轻重特损益之，其趣自生也。"
What is 中和 in Confucianism?
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/Literature/Classics/zhongyong.html
Tang Lici and Liu Yan are not simply playing with strings and waving their sleeves in beautiful scenery. The scenes of their musical battles appear to be framed and shot with all this in mind as per the cinematography and fight choreography, which is also why I mentioned in my review about the camerawork being specific.
Understanding at least the classical literature I have mentioned above is to have a very clear understanding of the rich emotional depth evident in this drama, woven into the screenplay and production process.
What has been shared in the relationships of Tang Lici with Fang Zhou, Liu Yan, Shen Langhun and Chi Yun, reciprocal and developed? You see everything about the ties of brothers chosen not by blood but by virtues, all beautifully fleshed out in joy and pain, kindness and heartbreak. What does Tang Lici care for, about the pugilistic world? Tang Lici's emotional core of 侠义 based on 三教 is demonstrated across the drama and becomes his key weapon to break the shackles of fate. Other pugilists such as the Sword Masters of the Central Plains Sword Alliance, the Yanmen sect etc, all demonstrate 侠义 by episode 32. 侠义 is essential to the wuxia genre.
I’m not thinking first and foremost of CP and romance, when I'm admiring how the Three Schools is amazingly incorporated in Whispers of Fate, and awed by how well the foundations of this drama has been carried out. Movies such as 1983’s “Zu: Warriors of The Magic Mountain” and 1993’s “Green Snake” require understanding of Mandarin plus the Three Schools plus a certain extent of Chinese culture and history, otherwise the basis and aesthetics of these iconic movies simply cannot be appreciated in its entirety and certain fundamentals are definitely overlooked.
Whispers of Fate falls in this very-Chinese category, which I am very thankful for. If someone is going to claim they see no wuxia in this drama, or “Mysterious Lotus Casebook” is wuxia but not Whispers of Fate, or why isn’t Tang Lici paired with someone otherwise he’s wasted due to unsatisfying romance in this drama because nothing else worthwhile seems to exist for this drama except the extent or lack of a “romance” between Tang Lici and A-Shui- My first unexpected reaction is to laugh, because it tells me a lot about ignorance in the opinion being proffered. I'm pretty sure you can find better views than mine, but you'll have to go on weibo for them.
Mini-dramas and vertical dramas are money-spinners. And everybody is IC, investigative work unfolds naturally, suspense maintained, no political intrigues (those who didn't like S3 as much as S1 and S2 was because of the political intrigue). Very good for new viewers to dive in and enjoy the humour and plot, because the unfolding of who's who and the characters (good and bad and grey) are very well done from a narrative POV :)
Binging this as a mini-drama is easy. Season 4 as a mini-drama helps new viewers believe that binging earlier seasons in longform versions after this drama eg Season 1 will also be easy.
Your reaction is remarkably unique and mature in nuancing about how you interpret romance here, because there were a lot of upset fans for one actress due to episodes 33 and 35, and they didn't sound anything like you.
Episode 19 was literally the most cringe-y thing ever, pertaining to lines from A-Shui. There were loopholes to accommodate A-Shui's presence in the drama, and here are various opinions from different viewers:
https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24391976
https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24400420
https://kisskh.at/755725-shui-long-yin#comment-24399916
When we talk about love, it depends on what love we are referring to. Some viewers inferred that the love Tang Lici was most lacking and most needed was maternal (that's also in the unfinished novel before it was adapted for this drama). Others say romance was what helped him learn. If A-Shui was indeed supposed to teach him about romantic love, then the way things have turned out taught Tang Lici he doesn't need romantic love. What he does in episode 39 (38:25 to 38:47) caught me by surprise.
At the end of the day, your reaction confirms that the producers did a good job walking that thin line of pleasing all three factions :D
When the first fifteen episodes aired, I at first defended A-Shui's inclusion. I thought she was bright, her indirect contributions were helpful- And then holes started appearing for her to be able show up at certain times and places in the drama. None of my offline friends support A-Shui's inclusion because they couldn't accept her portrayal as a female character being too cringe-y for them at times plus they didn't see the value of having her in the drama when certain storylines could have been strengthened without her.
There are viewers who believe there was romance, but there are viewers who also didn't see any romance between A-Shui and Tang Lici. It was the kind of "romance" that pleased the no-romance faction which if one puts it nicely, the producers walked a thin line to please all factions and hence led to the biggest complaints coming from fans of a certain actress about the disappointing outcome of Tang Lici having no CP.