jpny01

The main couple were charming and Nhai is super cute, but i was a little dull and pointless - I feel like I've seen this story many times. It was cool to have two dads though.

This is so bad it's become good. Exactly how evil is this woman? There's cartoonishly evil, extremely cartoonishly evil, then there's this lady.

And again, BL shows us its writers know zero about business and don't have access to wikipedia, I guess? You can't just go to a board meeting and take over as CEO - also, exacty who are the shareholders? If she has 25%, Kimhan has 25%, and presumable Rain has 25%, and their father has 26%, that's 101%. Why would the shares be crashing? People would have to sell them for that to happen, and it doesn't look likely that any of the 4 shareholders could have or would have done that.

Also, I'm pretty sure it's not a good idea to dump someone with his brain bleeding at a house in the middle of nowhere.

That might have at least held some suspense if it didn't have 5 minutes of content dragged out for 45 minutes.

I'm not even sure Fluke is a good actor anymore. Was it all an illusion? I don't think so, but he's as OTT as the doctor in this. To be fair, it's probably a coping mechanism to keep himself from cracking up every time he has to follow this script. It's also hard to take him seriously with that haircut.

This goes in the Unforgotten Night category.

Not only that, but it was the same helicopter!

I loved Sun's comforting - "On the bright side, it can't get any more tragic than this!"

Have you ever seen the film "The Life of Brian"? It reminded me of the song at the end.

Yes, because she was friends with In and In was friends with Siam. My high school girlfriend was best friends with my best friend's girlfriend and it was through them I got together with her - that story is repeated infinitely in every culture that has ever existed throughout all of human history.

Siam wanted to be with In, In pushed Siam to be with Mol because he thought it would be best for him and his happiness. These are In's words, not mine! If you want absurd, it's blaming that on 20-year old Mol, who had a crush on a boy, went after him, and he decided to marry her. How has she done anything wrong there? So why is it OK for Wang to pursue In but it's not OK for Mol to pursue Siam? It doesn't make any sense.

In did not "step back". He rejected Siam, told him to marry Mol, then fled and hid, and refused to even answer Siam's calls.

In knew he was gay, Siam new he was gay, In knew Siam was gay, and Mol had no idea Siam was gay. She's the only one that bears no guilt in that situation. She's not guiltless in everything that happened subsequently, but in that something happened to her based on a lie.

I completely understand In and Siam's behavior because I've been in similar situations, and I think they were at an age and a time where they weren't equipped to to resist overwhelming heteronormative societal pressures and made decisions that turned out not to have been the best. But that's the tragedy of a homophobic world.

Yes, by In. Siam wanted to be with In, In rejected him, moved away to hide, and pushed Siam to marry Mol. Are you watching the same show I'm watching?

Mol asked Siam to help get them together becasue she was in love with Siam, In was her best friend, and Siam and In were close. It is absolutely normal for someone to ask for help like that. Mol had no idea Siam was gay, and Siam decided to marry her. He knew what was going on, she didn't. She was never given a choice because she was deceived into thinking Siam loved her and wanted to marry her. I am completely mystified how it's possible for anyone to not see this.

You're making huge assumptions here - how do you know Mol knew everything? Did In say so? Did Mol? I think it's likely she eventually worked it out, but not before marrying.

I am not portraying ANYONE as a victim. You're making huge assumptions and getting hostile because I think the situation is complicated and you think it's simple. I don't think Mol is some poor victim, I don't think Wang is awful, I don't think In is just a coward. I think everyone got screwed by cirumstances that they didn't completely understand and control and all of them are behaving they way they are because they're coping with trauma.

You've missed a point - Wang knew exactly where he was going and he had planned all along to go there - rewatch the first episode, it's quite clear.

Your analysis only works if Wang isn't totally aware of what his mother is like - he is, to the point he knows everything she'll do before she does it, and he can explain exactly why. This is not some abused child.

I think we both know a philosophy major is not going to be making a whole lot of money - or any money, and you need a PhD to get anywhere with it, because your only career oppotunity is as a philosophy professor. There's no profession "itinerant philosopher."

Also you're kind of supporting my point - sure, In can probably support him if he moves in with him and takes him as a lover - but In has not agreed to that, and what a huge assumption to make! Wang has decided, but whether or not it's what In wants doesn't seem to be a factor for him. His repeating "what are you afraid of?" suggests that he thinks In feels exactly as he does and is only held back by fear. There are a very large number of reasons why In would hesitate to shack up with a 20 year old he just met and is his best friend's - and his former One True Love's - SON. I would not do it. Or at least not after having known him for three days.

My moving is a family decision because my parents are elderly and they need help, and now a greater burden is on my brother, who has to adjust his life to fill the gap. To view everything as your choice to do whatever you want is selfish and narcissistic. What is the point of a family if nobody has any responsibility to anyone else?

Her concern about a father complex isn't just solid, it's correct. That's not to say Wang's love is invalid - romantic relationships are complicated and daddy issues are a thing, and there's nothing wrong with that if both parties want it.

Mol is over the top and too emotionally dependent on Wang, and she grasps him too tightly, and she's certainly made mistakes - which she freely acknowleges, BTW, not a characteristic of malignant narcissists who can't conceive of being wrong about anything) but let's get serious - In pushed her into the arms of a gay man who didn't love her and made her miserable before effectively killing himself. Anyone who can't understand why it would upset her that Wang wants to leave her for exactly the same man she lost her husband to is not thinking it through - forget the empathy, just use logic.

I actually don't like Mol and I love (like really love) Wang - but that doesn't make everything she does bad and everything he does good in my eyes.

I think reducing it to black and white like that deprives the viewer of appreciating how fantastic the writing and characterization are, and miss the themes of the story. But everyone is different, and if appreciating it in a different way makes people happy, great - but I don't think people need to get hostile because I see it differently.

But that kind of proves my point - they can't even discuss it becuase Mol enrages them, and pointing out any of Wang's flaws also enrages them,

Again, that's a gross oversimplification. Mol didn't ruin In's life, he ruined his own life - that's the point. Siam wanted to be with him, and he pushed him away and into Mol because he thought that was best for him. Nobody's really to blame because of the times and powerful societal pressures, but she was pushed into marrying a gay man who didn't love her. Are we pretending she deserved or caused that?

Did you not watch In's conversation with Wang? You've missed have the point of this series! Wang is there to free In from himself, not his mother.

Actually, one of the reasons I'm not as harsh as other people on Mol is because she seems mild compared to my mother.

For the last time, I'm not showing Mol empathy, except as a human being. I'm saying that I think she's incredibly well-written and is not a carboard villain like many people are painting her.

And "tyranny" is so strong a word that it comes off as mildly ridiculous. What exactly is the tyranny Wang has been subjected to? It's the opposite - she hasn't shown him enough attention, and been his friend rather than the parent he needed. What does she force him to do? Wear? How to behave? What to say? The only line she's drawn is being abandoned by him.

Wang's narcissism is more natural and age-based than Mol's, but it's certainly there. He's decided on a field of study that will require his mother to support him indefinitely, he's decided he's moving across the country, which I'm sorry, is a family decision. I'm... older than Wang and I still discussed moving to another city with my family, he's decided he's moving in with In despite not having In's agreement - and who decides to move in with somone after knowing them for a few days? He's decided that In feels the same way he does and wants what he does - that is narcissm.

And let's not forget this story is happening in the first place because Wang manipulated Mol into ending up at In's house in the middle of nohwere.

If you're interpreting that word as "narcissistic personality disorder", that's not what I'm saying - he clearly does not suffer from this.

My point is absolutely not that Mol is the good guy and Wang is the bad guy, and this frankly a either a straw man or there are people that so blindly hate Mol and thing Wang is an innocent little saint that they're unable to see that these are not caricuatures, they're rounded and realisitic people. But if you can't see how Wang has been manipulative to get what he wants, then I guess he's better at it than I thought.

OK. I took "I'm staying here with In" to mean WITH In when combined with "I'm in love with In". But I guess it could be seen differently. His mother objected he'd have to live in a dorm and he said he'd stay in In's house - I suppose that could just mean "as uncle and nephew until I graduate."

Oh - I must have misread that - I thought they said a high school student.

Sorry about that! :)

And get well soon!

I think if you watch that entire conversation, he's not saying it's some option he would like to consider, he's telling her he's doing it, and at dinner he says point blank he's not going back to Bangkok, he's staying here.

I'm afraid of them not being together too - it's hard to see a positive outcome for any of the characters if they don't. But it does't feel like that will happen. All the themes, symbolism, foreshadowing, etc. have painted Wang freeing In from the prison of his trauma from the loss of Siam, and I would think he'd just jump right back in if Wang leaves him, Wang will then be stuck in the position his father was in, and Mol will lose Wang to his resentment of her. And I think it's way too late in the story to introduce new elements that are viable alternatives for anyone.

On the other hand, the theme is loneliness and the different ways three people cope with it, hiding, searching, grasping (I'm sure you can match those with the appropriate character), so everyone could end up alone, but that would be an incredibly bleak resolution and we'll need pitchforks and torches.

Anyway, Wang is 20 - he's not supposed to be fully mature, and In and Mol are scarred and traumatized and have some unhealthy coping mechanisms. I love the way it's written - all the characters have been given motivation that we can see and believe for their behavior, and it's so beautifully linked together.

Alrighty then.

You are really making a lot of assumptions about what I feel. I do not villify Wang - I've said many times that I think all three characters are complex, realistic, and fully realized. But I'm not willing to condemn everthing Mol does and excuse everyhing Wang does. It leads me to think that this is what you want me to feel because you keep saying I have great empathy for Mol and vilify Wang, when I'm not doing that - I'm praising the writers for giving us fully-realized characters instead of the usual BL caricatures.

If your son announced to you that he was changing his major to Philosophy and moving across the country to live with and be the bf of your best friend who your husband was in love with to the point of his destruction, unless you're Jesus, it's hard to imagine that's something you'd be able to process in half a day - nor should it be, because there are a lot of red flags about that scenario.

About 15 minutes in, In is ouside and Wang runs up and chides him for going out without his help - he said "I've made up my mind".

He tells his mother he's gay, he's in love with In, and he's staying there with him and studying philosophy there. That's fairly black-and-white.

If you don't think he means what he's saying, then he's saying it to deliberately hurt his mother, which is pretty awful (and I don't think that's the case, although I can see him subconsiously wanting to hurt her). He's assuming In wants what he wants but is afraid of it - that is narcissism. In's hesitance has a whole complicated array of reasons.

This isn't a BL. In a BL, we know before the credits roll that the leading men will both want to be together and will end up together (horrible outliers like Make Our Days Count notwithstanding, and you know how well THAT went over with the audience), it's the entire purpose of the story. That isn't the case here.

"I'm gay, moving out and across the country to live with a 45-year old man who you lost your husband to. How's that feel, mom?" Would a lot of people react well to that? He knows she's still suffering from that trauma - he even says so at dinner - so why smash her with a hammer like that?

Did In agree to have Wang move in and be his bf? Wang announced that this is his decision. I don't see how this is any better than Mol's behavior - I think we're conditioned by BL to view any woman who's not for the relationship to be an evil bitch, and we view the main couple as inevitable, destined for each other, inviolable, and anyone in the way is evil and should be destroyed.

I think In HAS learned from the past, he's just not taking the lesson you (or I) would hope for. But this is not the same thing. He's known Wang for a few days - that's very soon to make a huge life decision, and Siam was a year from him in age, not 25. If Nike wasn't 34 and looked 45, I think people's attitudes would be more nuanced about this - but In is more than twice Wang's age - this isn't a decision that's just about feelings - there are criteria in a life partner for a 45 year old that can't be filled by a 20-year old, and he knows the reverse is true as well, even if Wang can't see it.

The first thing he says is "I've made up my mind". He asks In how he feels about his decisions, but he doesn't involve In in the decisions and announces he's moving in with In who will be his lover, and I don't remember In ever coming close to consenting to that.

So my phrasing is not really correct - I meant that In never said Wang could move in and be his boyfriend, which consent usually precedes announcing such things. So isn't he using the same blunt force pressure that his mother does? He's convinced In feels the same way that he does, which is narcissism - it doesn't feel as bad as his mother's because of his enthusiasm (and hotness), but if you really look at it, how is it different? "You're coming home with me to Bangkok" "I"m moving in and you're now my boyfriend".

The only difference is that Wang's narcissism leads him to believe In has the same desires he does, whereas Mol convinces herself that what sh wants for Wang is what's best for him. Also, Wang's brand of narcissism is more relatable because we all go through that, whereas Mol is clearly too attached to Wang.

Wang did dump a lot on her this ep - it's hard to believe he didn't at least subconsciously want to hurt her.

I don't actually have a lot of empathy for her, I just think she loves Wang, parents are like that, and she has her own trauma that effects the way she sees things.

I don't think anyone's behavior has to be justified, my point is that you're ignoring Wang's behavior but condemning hers. He's only 20, but he's old enough to know "I'm gay and moving across the country to be the lover of a 45-year old man who you lost your husband to" was going to mess Mol up in a serious way, and he did it anyway. Maybe it was unconsious, but he wanted to hurt her.

Mol wants to direct his life, but what is Wang doing with In? Has In agreed to let Wang move in, let alone have someone less than half his age as a lover? Isn't that rather narcissistic?

People behave in ways that are influenced by their past, especially trauma - what is wonderful about this series is that all the characters are complex, they've all made mistakes and failed to see each others' perspectives, and I don't think the audience is intended to be judgmental.

Mol is an extremely complex character - I think whether or not she's villainous is debatable, but not that. she is not written as a disrupter, and it's quite clear that her grandiose persona is her armor - we saw underneath it this episode when Wang broke her down. She's an integral part of the plot and its resolution will involve her, not be despite her.