littlebluemonster

But it's also not uncommon for parents to neglect their children that way.

Right? His parents don't even look that old to me and his mother looks like she's in her late forties. So for me, it wasn't unrealistic for Chenchen to be their son because his mom would've only given birth to Chenchen when she was still in her thirties.

Thought the same about ML!! Lol. Like he was so good at drawing the line with Fang Lei at first and I was impressed. Only for me to watch ep12 and was baffled. Then I realized EVERYTHING WAS A LIE. He only acted that way because he knew Xu Yan would be watching.

"But Xu Yan values her dignity more than any career. She's smart, hard working, and talented, she'll get it all back and then some."

Could agree more with this!! I can't wait to see her achieving success once she leaves him.

And yes, I'm really curious to see what breaks him. Because he's always so composed. I hope the reveal will be satisfying and not lukewarm. Because like you said, he's not the type who'd hit rock bottom easily and cave.

He actually showed it from the first episode when he said he had eyes everywhere or something like that. I think part of FL actually sensed something was off, but because ML masked himself really good and played her emotions well like giving her expensive gifts and being exceptionally thoughtful, so it's easy to misjudge (I mean, even I brushed it off thinking he might not be that sketchy, lol). Especially when FL herself is busy making sure her lies stay intact and her cover isn't blown.

Xu Yan is crafty, but compared to Haoming, she's still quite naive. Even when he's shown that he knew who she was since the beginning, she still didn't get suspicious of him because he was "kind" to her. Being in FL's shoes, it's honestly hard to catch on because she lacked so much care and love, and ML just knew exactly how to play his cards to get her.

Both FL and ML are liars but FL's intention was never bad, unlike ML who literally wanted to shape her into his perfect wife and stepmother for his son. And if what FL's sister said was true, that ML was her first love, then the way ML showers her with "love" makes it even harder for her not to fall for him.

And yea, Xu Yan is a strong person and she wouldn't go down so easily. Her life may go downhill after the divorce, but she's gonna be bouncing back stronger than ever. I believe in her! Haoming really underestimated what Xu Yan's capable of in terms of competence and perseverance. And she's got way more dignity, self-worth, and self-respect than he thinks. She won't be anyone's puppet. I really can't wait to see her build herself back up after the divorce.

Basically he orchestrated everything since the moment (or maybe even before) Xu Yan went to his shop to try and get an interview with him. Due to his past mistakes (which isn't clear at the moment, but having a son before getting married is probably one of it), his chances of finding a girl, who's at his social status, and willing to be a stepmother would be hard. That's why he picked Xu Yan because of her background. She'd be easy to manipulate and she'd put up with all the "tests" from his family because she's unlike most rich heiress who would have less to lose and could easily dump him.

So in short, Haoming's plan was to make Xu Yan his perfect wife and give him the perfect man image with a perfect marriage.

I'm up to Ep12 and I think the sister did redeem herself.

====Additional spoilers=======


We got to see that it was mostly the parents' fault for playing favorites during their childhood and FL's sister was actually quite nice to her when they were young.

I've just finished Ep12 and it was a 180 degree from Ep11. The ML's mask is finally shedding and we finally got to see what he's scheming. It makes sense to me now and I can see how he's manipulative. But up until Ep11, he didn't seem manipulative to me, just very controlling. But at the time, it came across as him probably being a very wary person.

I kinda knew Haochen was supposed to be Haoming's son when they were filming the drama, but in the beginning, he was suddenly his brother and I didn't put 2 and 2 together. But without knowing any spoilers, I think the first 11 episodes made their love and relationship quite believable even though it was evident both were hiding something from each other. It was sort of like a Mr. and Mrs. Smith situation for me. But Ep12 flipped it entirely because now we finally get an idea of ML's true intentions while all this time we've only been shown the FL's.

FL is gonna leave him for sure. As desperate as she may be, she really values herself and knows she doesn't deserve that kind of treatment from him. Her career seemed to have gone downhill based on Ep16 teaser, and I feel really bad for her. I hope she gets to come back strong later on before she takes him back.

It wasn't shown yet until the teaser in Ep14. But I've watched it already so yea I know now.

I remember when they were filming this, Haochen was said to be Haoming's son. So I was surprised he turned out to be his brother. Lol. I thought maybe they misled the public while filming. But Haoming mentioned having a son in Ep14's teaser. So now it all makes sense.

Same! The fact that Fang Lei was crushing on her sister's bf....that made me sus of her when she said her sister died of an "accident".

After watching Ep12 and teasers until Ep16, I finally get what ML's plan was!!!! This is getting exciting. How much are they gonna tear each other down moving forward? I hate to see FL losing it all after working so hard for her career. ☹

Honestly enjoying this drama so much! The leads are both complex and grey characters and I love it so much. ML definitely knows what's going on. With how meticulous he is with the background checks, there's no way he didn't know about FL's true background. But I think he really likes her, that's why he indirectly told her to keep lying. I think part of him just wants to keep this "happy" marriage going without acknowledging the truth. Because once the truth is out, his family probably won't accept her and he's gotta face it too. Now he can just continue covering up for her and pretend everything's perfect.

What I really like is that they are secretly doing things behind each others' backs, but it also doesn't look like they'll hurt each other. At least for now, it doesn't look like they'll betray each other. I've only watched until ep11, and I honestly don't get how people are saying ML was being manipulative? Because he never really manipulated FL. He's been secretly helping her get rid of the scums around her. Though I gotta admit it'd be scary for FL to find out he's been keeping tabs on her. But it was also thanks to that, he was able to get rid of Lin Tao and the fraud, otherwise he wouldn't have known and they'll keep harassing her.

I also don't feel that FL had been manipulating ML either. I don't recall her manipulating ML into doing something for her own gain. At most, both of them have been lying to each other, hiding truths from each other. But manipulating? Not quite. Or at least not yet. Neither of them had been deliberately taking advantage of each other. I believe ML actually loves FL too because if he didn't, he wouldn't have bothered doing so much and covering up so much for her. But I really wonder what will break them apart because it can't be as simple as him "finding out" her truth since he most probably already knows her truth.

It's definitely disheartening to see that kind of comments and nothing justifies them, but I hope the team doesn't get discouraged. There are still gonna be haters regardless, so hopefully the team is able to filter out pure hate from constructive criticisms.

I did come across posts about how some fans felt they were taken advantage of, and also how they think MA were taken for granted. To be fair, if so many people felt that TT didn't feel like the main couple when they were made to be perceived as one, then something definitely wasn't done right, and some people weren't being completely honest. This doesn't excuse any disrespectful behavior from fans toward the creators, but I also get their frustration.

I think it's actually quite obvious that TT didn't get the same meticulous treatment for wrapping up their story compared to LertRan. Or maybe the decision makers had a different picture in mind. There really wasn't any loose ends for LertRan's story because it was wrapped up quite seamlessly, while for TT's final journey, viewers and fans had to make so many interpretations on their own based on things that weren't even shown. And this alone says a lot. There isn't much that's canon for viewers to use as a strong point of argument because of lot of things were too subtle and left way too open for interpretation.

Though, regarding this, some people liked it, some people didn't. So to each their own. But I think the dissatisfaction from fans are also valid, because (at least from what I've come across) it's not like fans are asking for an unrealistic ending, or adding scenes that don't make sense. If TT's final journey was given as much attention to detail, I don't think the team would've gotten so much backlash.

Just like how I think we should praise where praise is due, if the team did mess up, then they should also expect being called out. Respectfully, of course. And as I've mentioned, a work can be a masterpiece, but it can also be lacking in certain ways. Two things can be true at once.

I can see how the creators and the cast are all very passionate about this work. There's no doubt in that. And MA wouldn't mind sharing more screentime with others or let others take up more screentime if it makes the project better, and I think that's admirable. I think the team was bold enough to challenge something new, and I think that itself is commendable too. But whether the treatment TT got for their ending really made it better or not, I feel that it's debatable, especially when Trin suddenly became so misunderstood due to the lack of nuance for his actions when an extra few seconds of him (which Apo perfectly portrayed how suffocated and helpless Trin felt at that moment) could've made viewers connect with him even more.

Regarding some of the VO in the teaser, I do feel the same. But for the scenes like Trin outside EoE, and the origamis, they can take away the VO and the scene would still carry its meaning and purpose. Except for that apology at the end, because it didn't quite match the look on their faces.

And to be very honest, only giving that apology now after all that's happened actually feels forced and not genuine anymore, unless it was really planned initially. Because like you said, it feels newly recorded. But the scenes were less likely to be newly shot, which means they were part of the original plan, just that they weren't used. But idk, maybe it's just me. Some fans think the apology scene is still very much needed, but I think Trin's scene and the origamis, or at least just Trin's scene outside EoE, would've been perfect for the "show, don't tell" approach instead of including the apology. Because those two non-dialogue scenes were enough to explain everything if they had been included in the final cut.

After watching that fancon teaser, I'm seriously gutted about how the team messed up TrinTanwa's story, especially the connection audiences could've had for Trin, in the final episode.

Trin's deep sigh after he saw the state of Tanwa, and the struggle on his face before he decided to turn around and leave. THAT WAS SO IMPORTANT. It was only a few seconds. It could've saved us from so many misunderstandings, and that would've shown Trin being more in character while also struggling with his own issues and choosing to isolate himself. That few seconds alone could've given context and nuance to so many things and connected so many things together. That would've made Trin seem less cold when he told Sucha that Tanwa had to face his problems alone. That would've shown that Trin actually still cares for Tanwa, but he just couldn't. And Trin's words to Sucha would've made more sense, and allowed audiences to empathize with both Trin and Tanwa. Because the problem with the final cut had viewers split into team Trin and team Tanwa, with those who feel bad for Tanwa being mad at and disappointed in Trin for being so cold, and those who feel bad for Trin insisting he had no reason to be there. But showing that Trin had a moment of struggle would've brought both teams together rooting for their happy ending.

Those few seconds were what I was hoping for. Not Trin being by Tanwa's side and them healing each other together—impossible. Not Trin immediately forgiving Tanwa—illogical. But just something to link these things together. It's good that some things were left for interpretation, but when too much is left for interpretation, it creates a lot of misunderstanding about a character. And cutting those few seconds of Trin right outside Echos of Euphoria was a bad call to me. Trin defenders had to keep explaining why Trin acted that way and interpret everything on their own. People had to form their own ideas about the whole situation for it to make sense and to empathize with Trin's decision. This isn't even a "show, don't tell" situation because they didn't even show it.

And then the boat origami that seemed to still be with Trin in Paris? That would've added more weight to Trin and Tanwa's reunion in Paris instead of it feeling so jarring. That would've bridged the gap for those two years Trin stayed away from Tanwa. That would've made Trin's suppressed longing for Tanwa canon and hit even stronger when Tanwa suddenly showed up. That would've saved Trin defenders from having to explain how Trin still loved Tanwa and didn't move on from him. That would've saved Tanwa defenders from being mad at Trin for treating Tanwa that way and not apologizing.

Ah... and that apology. I don't know if they only added that after all the complaints, or it was actually intended but got cut in the end, or that might have been one of the versions for the Paris reunion scene they shot and decided to go with the vanilla sky one. The vanilla sky one was indeed more beautiful than the night view, especially after Trin and Tanwa had the mural painted and talked about it. It carried more meaning so I agree with that decision. And after rewatching the reunion scene, Trin does seem to stroke Tanwa's face where he punched him, so there's that little detail I can appreciate. In fact, if Trin's dilemma and the origami were shown, the apology wouldn't even feel needed already. But because both scenes were cut, showing no apology scene only made things worse. And viewers had to tell themselves, "Trin probably apologized to Tanwa later on." or "I'm sure they would've talked things out eventually."

A lot of things in the final episode surrounding Trin and Tanwa's relationship were left so ambiguous that their happy ending together wasn't fulfilling. To be honest, I think their scenes from Ep1-7 were all done beautifully. Their screentime may have been short, but it was always memorable. And it worked at the time, because the pace of their relationship was always slow, and there weren't exactly major conflicts, or at least we had scenes of them together later on resolving those issues. But with Ep8, there wasn't. There was nothing much that were CANON for viewers to build on and interpret.

Trin is a beautiful character. He's a complex one, just as all the other characters in Shine are. But I feel that they may have cut a lot of scenes that could've given more context to Trin's character and made him less cold or out of character. Apo did a phenomenal job portraying Trin, but keep in mind, what's put out in the end could also ruin or fail to fully present what Apo was trying to convey. And that's such a shame.

I'm just a casual BL watcher. I only found out KP this year, and I'm probably just a casual MileApo fan because I don't exactly follow all their works. I watch everything regardless of the gender, but I'm very picky with the plot, that's why I don't watch that many BLs coz not many plots interest me. But even as a casual fan or watcher, I felt letdown by how Trin and Tanwa's story was wrapped up, so I get how those who've supported MA a long time must've felt. (Though, still doesn't justify any toxic behavior.)

Shine is truly an incredible work of art. It's the type of queer/gay series I hope to see more of. I thought KP changed what I thought of thai BLs, but Shine was a whole new level, that's why I end up caring about it so much. And in terms of story and characters, I'm definitely more drawn to Shine (even though I like mafia-themed shows, but let's be real, the mafia theme in KP was kinda like child's play but not to downplay the team's effort because I still think they did a good job with KP). But Shine definitely deserves more praises and I'm glad it's getting acknowledged in the industry. That said, I also think there's definitely room for improvement because when something is great, it doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't be better, or that they didn't mess up in certain aspects.

I'm just glad I haven't come across much toxic and rude content attacking the creators and actors, because I know it's really bad on some platforms. I think the actors, especially, of Shine all had a good grasp of their characters and how they wanted to portray them. Each of them, even down to Senam who played Nuch, studied their characters well. I don't follow BOC closely, and I don't know if certain things were done deliberately regarding the editing or the promotion. I've tried to watch as many of the interviews they did for Shine to get a better understanding of the whole production and also the characters. I believe everyone did their best even though the outcome may have been disappointing in certain aspects. I think respectful criticisms are important, but also don't forget to show support and give their deserved compliments.

You're right about this. Another thing that bugged me a little was how Victor got excited seeing Trin at the protest when he made Tanwa promise to keep Trin away. But I guess we could assume it was Victor's adrenaline rush and he thought they were in the clear already since nothing happened when he made his speech.

Thank you for hearing me out as well. Just one last comment on Trin and Tanwa's situation, you mentioned Tanwa hurting Trin by failing to commit to their relationship at first, and I totally get it. At the time, although I understood Tanwa, I thought it was unfair to Trin also. But the difference was, we got to see Tanwa make an effort to overcome that, and show Trin that he could commit. Unfortunately, this time when there was a chance for Trin to make an effort instead and fight for their relationship after finding out the truth, his chance to show that onscreen was robbed from him, as well as the viewers. And I think that's what's causing these misunderstandings and disappointment toward Trin.

While I think leaving enough room for interpretation is important, providing enough context to make certain things canon is just as crucial. Because interpretations can greatly differ, and it's evident in our discussion as well as this comment section. I think it's good that when some aspects are left ambiguous, it allows us to debate on their characters. But sometimes I feel that it's also a shame because it didn't do the character justice. But this is just my personal opinion, of course.

It was a pleasure having this discussion with you. Hope you have a great week ahead. See you around. :)

Haha it's okay. Honestly we needed a character mapping for this from the beginning. Because I also didn't realize Pracha was Dhevi's uncle until we were halfway through the series. I also had no idea Dhevi had brothers until she threatened Lert with them. And all this time I thought Nuch was Victor's sister until he told her to stop wasting time on him. 😅

She was just being plain selfish. While I agree she was just doing what she thought was best for herself during that era, with the limited power women had, it still doesn't justify her actions. Understandable? Surely. But acceptable? Hell no.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I do agree Trin's isolation was also his coping mechanism, and I can see his struggle now. But I also don't want to see them heal *together*, actually. I feel that being supportive doesn't necessarily mean you have to stay together, or literally say words of support or comfort. I guess Trin asking Sucha to take care of Tanwa was his way of showing care.

On second thought, I think the real problem here for me initially, was Trin's line to Sucha saying, "This is something he has to face on his own." Because the impression this line gave me at first, led me to interpreting the scenes later on building on that.

To be clear, I think neither of them are obligated to help each other heal from their trauma. Their time together did provide them with some comfort and sort of healed the surface. But to really overcome it, that's an individual job and effort. And I actually like that they both did. That said, I feel it was the choice of words that irked those who are upset with Trin's decision. Or at least, me. Lol.

If Trin said, "This is something WE have to face separately on our own" or "This is something he has to face on his own TOO," it would indicate that Trin acknowledges both their flaws in this situation. It would show that, even though Trin felt like he can never be together with Tanwa again or forgive him at all, he saw their past relationship as two of them as a whole. And using "we" or "too" shows him taking responsibility for that relationship. I'm not saying Trin has to forgive Tanwa there and then though, because that's obviously unrealistic and don't make any sense.

But using "he" alone felt more like Trin was so ready to draw the line with Tanwa at that point, like he was washing his hands of their relationship. It just sounded harsh, especially toward someone whom you claimed to love deeply and planned a future together.

Maybe I'm just being nitpicky on the dialogue. But I think even a slight change of a simple word could alter the context and tone entirely, and that's very important in storytelling. But I do agree that Trin's reaction to just leave was painfully realistic. I also want to stress that I do think Trin's reactions were understandable. But I feel that just because certain things are understandable, that doesn't naturally make them acceptable. But to each their own, of course.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me and I really appreciate you sharing your perspectives on Trin. It did help me cut Trin some slack. 😆