swagata

This is long. Please read accordingly.

Logic part I will not say anything. But sequence of events and their choices whether right or wrong diff thing. But it made sense to me. That on what basis they are taking decisions.

Romantic and Individualistic development is subjective but here now that I think deeply about it. I think on individual level lufeng going through therapy and restraining his madness was an attempt on that part.

About character part. Show did showed it just very vaguely( as in not a central point) like:-
Yichen - he was school topper, college days good at studying but aloof, a person who tries new adventures earlier in school days ( roller skating) , actively participated in challenges( school days scene of wrong calculation of marks and him loosing bet if top 50 and lufeng got the prize of that device( don't remember device name) ) ,
Lufeng- rich, powerful, can't take no 😑, feels deeply, ready to fight for things that mattered to him, holding his ground.

Values we all know yichen values familial peity.

In ep1-2 i don't remember but lufeng came to yichen's house and they discussed their childhood. Yichen was so proactively discussing about his remote control games, how he was so handsome in childhood that people in their society called it out. How he was a nerd ( reading book before bed, going to libraries, diligent in his studies and helping lufeng in studies, yichen was a helpful person). He used to accompany his little brother whenever he plays guitar although absent in mind.
I remember lufeng said yichen to travel with him. I see travelling as individual preference also.

Likes/dislikes- orange juice. Sunflower for yichen and for lufeng just one homemade food from a person who actually cares.

What they like about each other....idk. In drama they never said it explicitly. But i think sometimes just spending time together and enjoying each other's presence over time can lead to develop feelings( not necessarily but can happen. Otherwise u like a someone a lot as a person/ individual but still can't love them) plus one note during school days yichen used to see lufeng being teasing him then friends then lovers. Whereas for lufeng it was curiosity at first voice/ attitude in reply and love at first sight which over time became deep to the point of obsession.
Note- i genuinely understand u on this how and what they like about each other part. Because story later just deals with suffering and going back and holding on to love despite all the bas things and toxic things happened between them. Because one actually will think what is that is keeping them to go back despite all these. Just why they fell in love soo hard to make choices like this.

Also i completely understand u. Most of these things are said to audience as a part to contribute to their romantic story and their evolvement in romance and relationship. That's why it gets often mixed or unnoticed. Plus this story deals heavily with dark romance so it's understandable that they pay more attention to their romance or introduce all these concepts very vaguely or loosely. It's there not much but not absent.

But i get u, u just don't feel connected with characters on individual level that much. I do agree that there is some fault in writing and adaption. Like that mental sickness was handled poorly although an attempt to fix the mess and toxicity but poor handling. Perspective and subjective matter.

1. I feel the set standard is no where wrong. If u are in love and are pursuing that person u need to be loyal. Lets break prostitution part:-
a. When lufeng indulged in prostitution after coming from US. It was wrong from my pov but the circumstances was like that. He didn't wanted to he was under influence of drug/ drink. This doesn't excuse him of his actions. But i have a very strong opinion about drinks so I don't want to go there.

b. When in drama, lufeng pretend to indulge in prostitution. No problem. Just keep ur intentions clear. His intention was to hurt yichen which itself is mixed. But the act of prostitution no. It's not wrong. He was not dating anyone or pursuing anyone.
In novel, i don't want to even say. Why would I even expect someone to not fulfill his/ her desire for 20 years? Because that person loves someone who no longer is his? Who is married and divorced and who already ghosted and abandoned them. With no clarity that he will be back. Not to forget both yichen and lufeng had a child in novel.

The whole fantasy of staying loyal works only when u have clarity and u are pursuing/ dating someone or loving someone whom u are actively pursuing.

2. It did changed something. In drama, yichen and qin lang although they were using each other they were not disloyal to their partners. Now, yichen in drama never "almost forgot" lufeng. I never felt that atleast that's why in first meet when they met i felt both are lying. That's why for me when he heard qin lang and his brother words he felt like third wheel or used person kind of person who is embarrassed, felt unwanted( god such harsh feelings to feel), he gave back qin lang who was never genuine towards him to his brother. He didn't said it but he felt soo bad might be thinking "i am so laughable" so when lufeng thing happened i saw yichen afraid of heartbreak because of separation and the qin lang heartbreak then this "left" word I thought as courage.

Now in novel, the word u used "almost forgot" if that's true then idk what to feel about lufeng. Did lufeng had prostitution or anyone during his US time? I don't remember but I think no. (But if yichen really did almost forgot lufeng. That's shows two things here. First- with no certainty of lufeng coming back he was ready to give others a chance. Second- he can actually forget lufeng. He has capability to let go of him and forget him. That's something idk how to even feel. As much as it is humane it is going to play big role later. It clearly shows emotional anchor of yichen.)
This whole qin lang incident has already started to impact yichen's state of mind in how he perceive himself as an individual. A person who felt unwanted, laughing at his attempt to give chance to qin lang like mocking himself "did he really thought that he is someone whom one can love", questioning his own identity as easy to fool. (God. This is soo harsh. Yichen has gone through so much now i am realising.) When he put back ring and saw lufeng it doubled it as u said. Idk now his " left" as in left dignity was just lost. And immediately after that when yichen just wanted to resign I'm order to not face lufeng now that i am realising was not entirely because he felt hurt due to Lufeng's indulgence in intimacy with other person and fear of heartbreak came true but because he also as an person wanting to escape this feeling. The feeling of not having self worth and self respect( he think as that's how he might have felt). Harsh harsh harsh....why did writer did this to yichen? Why to throw these many harsh feelings to a character? Then add another layer of hurt from black flag no wonder these things started way before black flag era leading to yichen actually believe that he is worth nothing. I never saw this.

3. Wow this i never even understood. I could haven't. Thanks for clarifying. Because i was genuinely thinking why yichen's brother was being hated and i thought anyone would have right? If that person is ur family u definitely don't want them to get hurt so his actions of blaming in a way made sense as to why the blame was not entirely vague or empty. Just that not whole picture. And now i understand why there was mention of qin lang, brother and yichen. Looks like it was never simple.

I know this is very controversial but i think somewhere lufeng did gave yichen an assurity that he mattered to lufeng. But still ending with lufeng and not going to his brother are diff. Staying with lufeng after everything was more tough than his brother whom he never trust. I mean go back to his brother and never discuss ur problem to him. ( Ik that's not how relationship works but it seems easy than being with lufeng). Why he chose lufeng as priority than his brother? After coma incident. And after divorce incident. What i am even saying i know the why but still this is additional and new why for me.

Yichen being unreliable narrator. Don't know. But his actions of taking wrong decisions is humane. But I see hypocrisy also here. If yichen makes wrong decision it's humane and if lufeng then criminal. I get the actions lufeng took was criminal in nature. But him defending their relationship is not. Him standing firmly on his decision of leaving everything even his sister in novel is not. Him unintentionally pushed his brother is not. Lufeng also has made wrong decision and that's humane tooo. Just leave black flag part. But audience did reduced it to blaming everything to lufeng.

That's why this kind of story hits me harder. Each time u think and feel diff and it's often contradicting and complex in nature.

Need to re read again.

True. People often put what they feel in simpler way. The "why" is something that demands time. Most people use drama as entertainment and fun to get relief from hectic and chaotic daily life. That's why the "why" exploration attempt was never made.
Complete opposite of my way of approaching dramas. Nothing to do with educational bg but at one point yes I did started watching dramas just to support what i am studying. Or to understand what i am studying through stories. That helped me a lot. Not that this will ever get utilised as people ques what's the point of this knowledge? Tbh idk. I just love it what to do?

That's what sometimes things get lost in adaptation. This teenager thing I never truly felt and the weight of crying out of not being able to comprehend mixed feelings was soo sad and emotional. Never even thought this way. What i understood is that yichen said no and thing somehow did happened. Lot of things I have missed now that I think about it. Partially it comes from a reader who just read story as it is and not in analysis mode. But this approach looks like when u put urself in their shoes and understand their pov. Both techniques are right and imp. One gives overall idea of someone who is not involved to see the situation clearly and another is deeper like empathy. An effort to understand why and what if of character. Second approach as much as it is effective but as much as it is tough on reader and tiring. I find that switching constantly in between characters pov little bit hard. But considering that a lot i have missed i will give this method a try without any bias in my head with clear mind.

Novel is surely long. And i acknowledge that it has to be read in leisure time. But also when u are in correct energy to recieve and process the novel.

True, to make the fictional world feels real author don't need to make their characters go through all the pain in the world. But sadly some do. Because if u give pain then reader will sympathise it more and feel connected with their pain and the characters and the story in general. But this works when ur core story is based on fiction.

But when u read novel like "kite runner", "tamas" u are including those characters and world not to make world feels alive and real. But to add the tragedies that happened. How it impacted the world, people. These stories deal with some real dark stories that atleast in "tamas" author included a line " say or not say doesn't matter" as if mocking future generations and readers that say or not say. U will eventually forget these events and if remember it's just a line in history page. Not understanding the pain the country or people has to go through. Here world building and inclusion of other characters was not just branching plot to main characters those could be real people whose name just got changed to make us future generations know and remember the depth in tragedy once a place has seen. And why as to till this date that event is a thorn between two countries, people, community and religion.
I went very off topic here. To the point that this forum doesn't look right place for this Convo.

Now this part I never thought before this because this info was unimportant for me. But now after reading ur take I think it was imp. Although i don't see and ques both lufeng and yichen for fulfilling their desire. Those are normal human being feeling. Plus they were not together. Yichen truly was seeking the comfort the relationship lufeng brought with him with qin lang and not just sex. Which he can't find because he can't love qin lang. What he was looking was a complete relationship with him to move on from lufeng. So his relationship with lufeng must be good. Except that SA in first time intimacy.

But lufeng was different. He never wanted to look to other people as his romantic interest. He was clear he was, is and always will be loving only one person that is yichen. But desire is a human thing. One can indulge with consent from both parties if no dating is involved. That's why I never even questioned lufeng in 20 years gap when he was bringing people nor in drama when he was pretending. Just the intention was wrong in drama. He was purposely bringing so that he can't hurt yichen and i get his stance he wanted yichen to feel the same pain he felt but how it impacted yichen we already discussed. Yichen developed strong inferiority complex.
But in novel lufeng was no where wrong. Why would one have to stop and control their human need when he is not in relationship and will never be. Yichen coming back to his office was something lufeng would have never imagined so why would he had to? And even if he was aware why he should wait 20 years? That's why when drama was airing lot of people here pointed out as to how wrong lufeng is doing with yichen by this. And i actually never understood why it's wrong? Lufeng was just being a human.

Please enlighten me regarding yichen and his brother and how it affected trust and how qin lang relationship had to do anything with it. Because I truly didn't understood. And i am actually trying to understand here. For me, yichen's brother actually was wrong in pushing qin lang to him when he knew the reality and i thought as a brother he was genuinely concerned. As to how it impacted yichen I see only as him loosing his confidence in himself and making joke of him. Adding to his genuine effort to move on from lufeng. I never thought and am actually having hard time in understanding the hate towards yichen's brother and why this is so imp. Because there was mention of this later also. But not in detail.

Ending here we both agreed. I am just happy that I am not alone. See i can't make and influence (nor i want to) whole world. I just want to feel that there is someone who also think like me. Simple. Because in drama ending I was crying and crying. It took me days to figure out as to why their togetherness is not making me feel happy. Why I saw those eyes of lufeng and why yichen's energy was off as if he has lost his some part of soul. He is just calm. And not in good way. It was sad calm . Generally calmness is good but that kind of calm. God what i am even saying. But anyways that's how I feel. Novel ending we already discussed in detail.

It's understandable why people think it promotes toxicity. Because for most people togetherness= happy. When it's not. What happened between them was just sooo tragic that even in separation they will suffer and in togetherness also. One line explained everything " happiness in true sense can't be achieved after all these". That's their take and this is my take. Diff pov.

I am definitely not putting you in victim- perpetrator audience zone because we constantly explored deeper aspects of story. It's just that when I see those reviews I feel am I that wrong to look past toxicity and understand characters and their position and their relationship beyond that. I feel like am kinda bad here when i have literally taken a course and studied books and given exams on ethics, social justice , integrity, ans ques revolving around crisis of consciousness.

Now, exactly this I was thinking these days. How a minor change in adaptation can change everything in story and the dynamics of relationship and understand the characters emotional position. That's why I generally don't understand what's the middle ground of adaptation. While adapting as it is.. is extreme and while making changes...changes the stance and the emotional depth of story. Novel and ff gives liberty of creativity and exploration without any filter but movies and drama can't work like that. One change( modification/ addition/ deletion) doesn't seem much to others but in reality even adding a location or changing place changes lot of things. How much should be adapted as it is? And what and how those changes should be brought is a question itself to the people who are adapting. The directors, screenwriter and author herself for what she wants things to add/ keep as it is. But to viewer we can only see and understand the changes and it's impact.

Lufeng seeing gay couple in US must have hurt him so much. But i feel he also would have thought what if they fell in love with each other in US and not in China. Things would be soo heavenly for them.

For yichen crying in park. There is my observation or kind of difference u can say. In novel, it was straight up depicted as rape. Period. No misunderstanding just rape. Because if the logic " everyone wants to make love with whom they love" holds true in action. Yichen would not have felt "not enjoyed". He protested lufeng lot of times that let's talk. I am not ready . But lufeng no. He can't take no for he is powerful and rich and stupid controlling male ego also hiding behind the mask of " oh he is just scared and nervous". The drama's presentation may not make all viewers recognize it immediately as rape. Before I say anything in this regard my stance is clear " rape is rape no matter who, how, what nothing." Now in drama, when I say not everyone can immediately identify it as rape means it kinda confuse their audience in thinking that might be might be yichen is actually just nervous because when lufeng said " what are u scared of", yichen replied " anyone would be in their first time". Because that's also a valid point. First time actually everyone will feel nervous.No strong saying I didn't liked it as dialogue internally like in novel and when lufeng said why he looks unhappy. Yichen's reaction was like i didn't deny the intimacy it's just i have feelings why I have to be in bottom, what my parents and society will think. Which kinda confuse a person. ( Trying to put logic in SA is just idk how to even say) . But it's a straight up rape because when that scene was happening one can feel uncomfort and mixed or switching yichen's feelings during that scene. But the park scene reduced the whole thing they was trying to show. Like u said u can't forgive the smile part of yichen. I can't understand the need of reasoning after SA. Simple. After SA u don't give explanations.

Now I also think the first time intimacy drama was not trying to show it as a rape because when I saw Reaction video of them. They didn't seem to recognise it as rape. Could be they were avoiding sensitive topics in reaction video but facial expressions is also not telling me that. But I saw that reaction in ep9 reaction video.

Sometimes that's why one should not ignore the adaptation of the exact line and post SA scene from novel. Plus i remember in book yichen was sitting because he can't go home/ hostel. Because he didn't had wallet and bus transportation. He sat in park because of helplessness. What he must be going through godd.... But in drama they cut everything and just showed yichen being sitting on park due to exhaustion. Why would screenwriter did that? I was frustrated there. It impacts how character feels and how audience perceive it.

Note- I am not finding logic or justifying or romanticising rape. It's a heinous crime. If i used a word that came out otherwise I apologise in advance and I am ready to rephrase my words.

Hmm. MDZS was truly a masterpiece. A well written book. But seriously after this conversation i have to read ARTTL again and notice those little points u mentioned.

-----off topic-----
Also, after this whole Convo i think I will remember the main plot and branching plot theory for which i never understood as to why in certain novels people take diff stories and merge it in one. Why there are random mentions of other people who were never the part of the story characters. I now got the ans of that which is the main plot.
I was not ready to read one novel despite me voluntarily purchasing "tamas" which dealt with partition stories of 1947 and published in 1974 for which it deals with diff class of people and how it impacted them and how the daily life during that time looked. Mentions of killing, hate speech, communal hatred towards religion. But now i guess with this theory it make sense as to why those are included and I can actually redefine my approach towards that story by not looking through character lens and more as a society and human sense.

I am not sure about lan lin style but if it's intentional then she proved why she can write and handle this genre well. Because even if u are making audience feel happy and then sad then mix emotion then happy and sad. The events and timing of those events and duration has to be of perfect precision so as to help readers/ viewers differentiate major events and it's impact and it's role in overall relationship dynamic. Too short of this connection will loose reader interest and understanding of character and too long will not give exact roller coaster ride of emotions.

About Lufeng being drugged it contributed a lot in their relationship as yichen who was ready to give another chance despite him being fearful of heartbreak ultimately understood that walking in path with lufeng will eventually lead to his fear coming true in long term and that's why he resigned. Lufeng being in other hand it was trigger to him of loosing yichen and again going through hell in separation. Thats why that one action was the shift in his actions and approach towards yichen from being sweet in approach but obsessed to show and approach yichen with obsession and possession.

On the other hand, yichen and qin lang relationship in novel was yichen's desperate attempt to move on from lufeng. He really wanted that to work but it didn't. In drama, he was trying to get feelings for qin lang but he couldn't. This minute difference in adaptation made me see things differently. First of all for me yichen and qin lang relationship arc didn't contributed much to the story. Remove it and u still know that yichen can't move on as he still love lufeng. His love was deep enough to hold it stronger in his heart and memories that even if there is uncertainty of him coming back from US he can just live single and in yearning. But what changed here with adaptation in drama is that yichen always stayed loyal towards lufeng. Physically, emotionally, mentally. That led me feel their love more stronger.

For the ending yes. We both here agree and are on same page. When i watched drama ending I can see and feel how this is not happy ending despite main characters being together. I was not seeing happiness in specially lufeng's smile and his eyes. And from yichen's side although he didn't express much and was there for lufeng in his treatment and after and in ending scene. His togetherness with him didn't made me feel happy for which his soul is scarred with separation, time they lost and most importantly SA. SA just crushes your soul to the point the only way to heal is to first forgive urself, then the perpetrators( which is impossible), then work on urself bit by bit for ur soul has shattered into 1000pieces of glass. Pick it up, get hurt while picking and still ur hands will bleed. U will glue them but cracks will be there always and some glass pieces crushed so bad that u can't just find it. I see SA of that level.

That's why at one point I never wanted them to be together. But when I saw them together I felt happy and was in dilemma for days that why??? Why i have to feel this way. Ur point here make sense that even if they are together but not happy and i felt it as well was in a way lan lin's way of showing the repercussions of those actions and process that it's irreversible. And after those things happy ending in true sense can never be achieved and in a way lan lin way to say to its readers and viewers that she don't promote toxicity.

I get your point about RL. I will leave this topic by just saying that I am,will and never going to stop saying that it's a fault in writing and audience ( whatever reasons whether author romanticise it or not, whether audience perceive it as rom com leading to distributed attention or even unnoticed and it didn't contributed to the main plot except the fact it has led us to understand the characters better) that gang rape, use of torture in sex, partner sharing and what not are not something u can just show in the name of characterisation, plot and just branch arc and never address that. Acknowledgement is also an addressing an issue and it should happen either from author, show, audience. We both agree here. U as saying issue in author's writing and me through audience and show. We both understand here. Why i am emphasizing this strongly? Because i have seen in my real life and through out my life how drama/ movies/ literature has influenced mass. Eg- there was one movie where ML fell in love with FL and he follow her everywhere in the name of love. And this was shown and sidelined again and again in the name of fiction and creativity that today my country think this is romantic. And this became such a major issue that even internationally this behaviour was called out because that person was influenced by movies. So big no there. I am not against throwing and showing serious issues and dark issues. I am well open to that. Because it helps in bringing out the things no one has thought and it happens. Education and awareness spread by these topics. Psychology gets better understood. And as audience when we see these we raise our valid points and try to bring these things in front of society and in law making.

I now do understood your point after discussion that why RL was seen more as rom com because it's main plot is rom com and DH is complete dark romance in genre. So toxicity is the main plot which has driving force as love. So the focus here is more on toxicity rather than plot, characters and their position itself.

I am not longer comparing DH and RL. I understood those are two different genre and comparing it will be useless.

But tbh DH is much more deep than what story tells u and show actually shows u. Simply reducing DH as just victim and perpetrator and saying their relationship is Stockholm syndrome. I am confused here because i clearly see what DH offers me is a very layered characters and layered plots and mix of emotions. Sometimes when it's hard to understand the story people generally reduce it to more simpler terms which they understand the most( here lufeng being perpetrator and yichen being victim) which is not the complete premise of the story here. In drama, The story is and will always be about two people in love who wanted nothing but to share a lifetime together. And that promise was etched in their heart. But the society didn't let them. Eventually they broke themselves and their love because of society, expectations and their own choices leading both of them to suffer. One became monster and other became the bearer. But as u only pointed out, it's dark romance. It should hurt u( enough to let go of that person despite love because of pain) but it's comforting u also( staying together due to love despite being hurt).
It's not stockholm syndrome to me nor the victim perpetrator story. Victim- perpetrator is just a major branching plot contributing to main plot here to me.

I love these complex and emotional high stake stories where no one is in right no one is in wrong. Both are right and both are wrong. Characters where u should hate him( lufeng being monster in house capture) but u do understand the pain of character( his family bg, power, separation, yearning). It questioned not only me as audience but me as an individual. I was having sleepless nights just because I was simply not able to understand my moral compass and dilemma why I have empathy for lufeng. Why yichen despite him making sacrifices for his family I feel strong hatred towards him also. Because of his lack of effort in saving the relationship and fighting for it. For me this drama was not only a dark romance to it's characters but also to me. I was truly astonished by the toxicity as I have never dealt with these emotions earlier( toxic relationship but still wanting happy ending but still happy ending feels wrong). I am not sure about how author of DH wrote this story. Was she truly that creative prodigy to write these intentionally or she unintentionally created a story where reader/ viewer is undergoing so much. Either way DH will always be a story close to my heart. Whether positive or negative idk. But it did left it's mark on me, to a person who is looking for a story that connects my heart and fulfill my soul by emotions, pain, love, questioning morality. That's why I just don't understand less rating. Because I am sure even actors had it hard. To be able to portray those heavy emotions through dialogue, movements, eyes, touch shows how capable Ayden is.

I am not well educated in literature and art of writing. I see drama I feel drama and it's characters and I keep story close to my heart.

The only time I went into the pshycology of writer is when i read Master of demonic art cultivation ( The Untamed novel). Author did said it that she used empathy techniques for time travel to say xue yang and song lan story. And in case of Jin ling she deliberately didn't chose empathy technique and used soul chord technique as it was not story but through ques and ans they were trying to figure out what happened to jin ling and where he is. It was such a good literary device. I was truly impressed.

But this drama I tell u. It gave me massive trauma that I need to sit down and write diff endings( i wrote 4-6 endings) so that I can silence my inner thoughts and mixed feelings towards this drama and their characters. When i am core sucker of just reading novels and books but no writing.
That being said it was a good discussion.

I agree with all points here. Before replying to ur any point. I will just highlight i haven't read complete book sentence by sentence not volume1. I read volume 2 more better. And I read when this drama was airing to help me connect more with characters.

1. I do realised that novel is from yichen's pov. What we got to know about lufeng is through yichen's lens. About lufeng being recognised as problem in novel. Hmm I need to re read book. I might have missed it. But this is also true that in drama there was recognition plus action on that part. Show literally highlighted explicitly a lot. In book as u urself said and the ans I will get after re read is implicit.

2. The stark contrast between their sweet relationship in their school days to the phases after coming back from US, then separation then black flag then cool off phase then near separation then reunion ( add drama- reunion- recognition of lufeng problem then again trying to cope up then reunion in drama) that's a lotttt. It's a lot to keep up for the people who are going through. And as viewer I was literally not getting room to breathe and settle down my emotions. I am not understanding the volume parts here. Because the translation that I followed ended after their kiss with 10 chapters. And there i didn't understood lufeng's life. I understood how both see each other after black flag era. How their relationship is evolving.

3. Agree. Agree. Agree. ( In daily soap opera style).
In novel lufeng redemption was his realisation of the whole situation they reached. He was suffering mentally and emotionally carrying the weight in silence. His realisation can be felt in his actions( restraint, respecting boundaries, not taking first action in terms of intimacy, hesitation). Drama lufeng apart from these faced another layer of problem his mental health. Mind you. Both suffered. In novel, yichen's body inferiority complex started to arise from the day he saw lufeng around young people. He always compared his body with others. That how he is too old and nothing attractive about him. At the end this feeling remained within him. But there is one line that was beautiful where lufeng said " i got intimated and kissed lot of people but i am felt nothing. It's always u who my body and heart wants. "Just u and always u. One kiss was enough to satisfy Lufeng's soul. For me that sentence was powerful. Lufeng was even attracted to yichen's body. It's yichen who think he is sex doll. It can be resolved. I want novel yichen in fictional world to understand this and stop having body inferiority complex and his useless secretary thing. I guess that's why even yichen wanted to have a shop on his own. His own independence as an individual financially and psychologically.

I literally chocked on my ice cream by reading ur snake thing. Saying it to a person who is scared to death of snakes and find it creepy was cherry on top.

Never knew of that sentence in novel. But i am getting feeling that you are saying CA was supposed to a rom com but because the author used to romanticise it during her old days she included all these toxic parts. I am not aware of this. What i thought while reading is that novel is toxic bl and it has character WSW which makes whole novel giving a sense of rom com.

My comparison of RL to DH was based on later reference.

Like u agree writing was bad in that context. I am saying although it was comical ,addressing and acknowledgment from either author, audience is imp. Part of this is coming from a girl who has always seen wrong in drama/ novel/ movies but neither audience nor show treat it as problem.

We are on same page here that partner sharing is wrong and its bad. But did show showed that? Did audience questioned it? What i am comparing is not genre. But the action. Just because a drama is rom com it doesn't snatch away the wrong act in novel/ drama and my point why hypocrisy in audience despite genre in pointing out wrong as wrong? And if one is having that strong sense of justice then justice can't be biased. Not seeing problem in RL or CA and only seeing issue in DH is irony.

It's not about flavour of cake( genre)It's about cake. ( Action in drama).

True. Afterall liking is a subjective matter. Even though we are in same boat. I will not deny that..i didn't smiled when I heard magic City and coconut city. And the way director was sooo non chalant. He don't care whatever is happening around him. Just chemistry and his series and his actions and cut.🤣🤣

I have same problem. What everyone told me is shut my brain and just enjoy. It's not about list but more about how u are approaching this drama. If you approach by expecting " deep in" like drama name u will not like it. If u approach it as light drama it will work.

Tbh everyone is praising ollie. I have to admit that I didn't knew him before this. But the actor playing ZZ he is actually good in acting. There was one scene in ep1, where he after interview just feeling his inner actor and showing chinese theatre/ play. That was good. Because i have seen in lot of historical cdrama their voice is loud so that everyone can hear. And expressions are also loud so that everyone can see. But when ZZ did. His expressions and movements was clear yet gentle. Like u can read his expression even if he is not saying a story.

Plus those doctor and victim scenes. Those are intense. Those are talks related to expectations from mother, nightmares etc. As first role of actor it's a good way to show how wide his acting range is.

I see just one issue here. I have known that patient often in these kind of treatment gets attached to their doctor blurring ethical lines. The doctor also is expected to not show strong reaction or emotion towards their patient. Which i know these are expected things in this drama as per synopsis. It just come down to the fact how well series will handle this. Not up for morality and ethical war again. But that director he is so non chalant 😅🤣. He just care about his actions and chemistry.

That's Entertainment industry for u. As glamorous as it is in front as dark as it is behind the scenes. But i liked how ZX answered to that rich investor. And he totally didn't gave him chance to even take audition. He made sure it's only ZZ with whom he is acting.

I am not following up series in much detail. But i remember they said shooting will start in 15 days. And next thing i saw is them shooting. What I was not aware is that someone can actually try to influence and push the idea to take that person as ML opposite when shooting has already started. Generally, these things happen before finalisation and start of shooting.

So i have one doubt. So far. ZZ in suite spent time with ZX and he is habituated of him asking for rehearse scenes. So he felt jealous in ep2 because someone else has kissed ZX? Then in ep3 ZZ sees ZX as Fang chi. So, is ZZ mixing fang chi and ZX? It's like ZZ is attached to fang chi as a character because it's his first role it's understandable he can get confused about his feelings. But at this point does ZZ has any feelings for ZX? All i feel is little bit attraction and admiration from his side.

Also- I felt little bad for ZZ gf. It must be hard for her to see that someone she love is slowly drifting away. Like she can feel ZZ emotions and him being slowly getting distant towards her.

Another doubt ZX said to his gf " come fast. Otherwise I might fall in love with someone else". Is he not? Because it looked like he is aware of his feelings and his actions. Then why he said like that?

That's why coming to the conclusion. On hold. Not in correct energy to recieve this drama. Maybe some other time.

Interesting. Actually I do want to say i like novel version more. I loved CA. WSW was funnier there. U urself said the way he think was soo funny. The brick hitting. I laughed like crazy. Then his stingy nature was done soo well. That he is rich now but because of hard bg and people looking down for that adds extra layer. He was not ready to spend even one yuan or coin in other stuff. The way CC has to look at WSW for getting money to buy ice cream was soo hilarious. That's why when WSW said to CC in jail that he spent all his money to just meet him. CC hated it. He hated himself and WSW. He cried how because of him WSW stingy nature which he secretly adored was gone. It was such a emotional scene. Did I felt that in drama? No. So adaptation of even romance was bad for me to connect with RL.

Now main thing. Snake scene drama version didn't even explained how? What? Nothing. U urself said it added to "main plot" because that's where they both are trying to outwit each other and trying to get into the zone of strangers to literal lovers. How they fell in love? How Revenge arc became love arc neither drama explained nor novel. That's why I till now don't understand how they just fall in love. I mean there are scenes in novel where it is mentioned that CC eating in small restaurant and not complaining made WSW unintentionally compare to yue yue that she wouldn't do this much. The way CC bombarded WSW mother with gifts and love and respect, yue yue would never. But drama didn't told it. It just reduced emotional depth. The "main plot" itself was not plotting for me. If i have to ques when how of their relationship.

Coming to partner sharing part. The novel is toxic( i see racism, emotional manipulation even after they get into relationship the wang shuo part, CC being the toxic person who was violent and the reference where he was using brothel/ bar where people are screaming because he used to use torture as a form in sex) but drama is not. There is a difference in marketing. It changes everything for me. If toxic novel marketed as toxic I will still give author benefit of doubt to include these scenes just to throw around cruelty. But rom com marketing and including partner sharing and having comic bg which make sense but still...u can say that here comes the role of fandom to differentiate that this is rom com but still wrong. But did u find that level of maturity in 80 percent of RL audience??? No. They never even discussed these things. Rom com drama throwing serious themes and audience never pointing out is more concerning that DH being toxic novel adapted to toxic drama and marketed as toxic genre. ML never got romanticised in novel or drama. Audience for 1000th times said we don't romanticise these. Show trying to make attempt to fix the mess diff from source material. People still come and complain oh u call this love? This is tooo toxic?? I mean what are u expecting then?

This is my problem that u are reducing toxic bl to victim and perpetrator and going all around to who watched it and understand the layered characters saying that they are sick. Like we don't have moral grounds. Personal attack. Giving low rating to actors. ( RL acting was below average for me. Here ayden did well in acting) Why this hypocrisy in DH but not in RL.

I am not here questioning and comparing two dramas and their plot. I am calling out the double standards of audience who don't ques in one but ques in another the morality.

I like ur pov here. I think I need to re read the book. During my first read i was way too emotional to think like this.

One thing even I will agree and it's a downside of this drama that this drama don't really ever show how much yichen loved lufeng. Allow me to put words into this.

In the novel. Yichen's love for lufeng was explained soo beautifully. The feelings. The conflict where he went to his office after 20 years separation. He went there to have personal convo. He still loved him. He deep down wanted lufeng to have some kind of feeling. During his house capture era, he was more hurt that he has to see lufeng everyday with someone new than capture itself. He was always comparing his 40 year old body with young people which lufeng brings. During bullet shot. The sentence " i should be hating you but why I can't. What's the feeling deeper than this hate. Ah, now i realise I have always loved you" was sooo powerful in novel. It took my heart. But in series, they reduced it to just "i hate you". Which again as u said reduced intensity.
Then after bullet shot, it was yichen's comfort also to share same path, same roof nothing grand just each other's presence and their care. After yichen went back to lufeng saying no to his brother. The way novel depicted the emotions of yichen that sometimes he want to be closer to lufeng. He is also remembering those old school days. The way he is giving hints. His dilemma that he is too old for romance. But the way lufeng also controls his actions. The valentine day when he mischievously and in yearning stole a peck from his xiao chen. And then said i have to wait another year. The way yichen also wanting to give back the ring. That he also hold dear these feelings after all these hurt. The way yichen this time took step and said " i want to be with u" the realisation " i have never said sorry for wasting his youth. When I was growing old he was also. He has maintained body perfectly but one can see his face has aged due to loneliness" the way he realised was soooo emotional. The way yichen looked at lufeng that how much just how much it was hurting lufeng to let go of yichen with his brother but he can't do anything. He is dying by just even seeing and thinking. His body is collapsing. Yichen is seeing him from the car. The way yichen realised about lufeng " he is hurting. He is still in love with yichen and he is still expecting the luxury to see each other and just be together". The book explained 1000th time better. Drama did reduced emotional depth in this regard. Afterall 20 years separation and yearning but still having love is completely on diff level than 5 year gap.

But novel didn't showed that lufeng has problem. His redemption came from realisation that one more act of toxic and control and he will loose yichen forever. So he restrained it. Completely opposite of drama where he was shown as sick. Sick because he never got his inner child healed due to family bg, years of separation, fighting world for his love and even yichen whom he loved so much for literally begging to not leave him. I sympathise lufeng in drama more. Maybe because i haven't read complete novel or read second half better. But it is also because somewhere lufeng in novel didn't had strong redemption arc for his actions. But his 20 years separation made my heart wrenched.

The drama tragedy is their " happy ending" look i get the idea that leads are together= happy ending. But in drama it's not. I don't see it as happy ending. It's very bittersweet. Lufeng lost himself as a person. He lost who he was. He lost his ability to smile that brightly( actors fault for making me fall in love with his sunshine smile in ep1-2 that even today lufeng= his smile), his eyes shining so brightly. What I got in the end was lufeng who has pain in his eyes and smile. Loneliness scarred his soul. His eyes tired in shaving cream scene. He is at peace that he don't need to chase yichen anymore but the cost was high. Peace is a subset of happiness not happiness in complete. Both yichen and lufeng has to work hard in their fictional world to make good memories, have stable environment and giving assurance that no i will not go anywhere. Because bipolar disorder although mentioned " cured" in drama ( not possible irl) but there also doctor mentioned to keep giving lufeng stable environment. Stability in his life and mind and heart that someone is there for him.

But in novel ending, i genuinely felt it as happy ending. Because although they have bumpy journey. They had 20 years of separation and yearning ( can u imagine 20 years? tragic. That's why I think hate was stronger in novel). But at the end when their scene end like " if nothing let's just kiss" and the way they just got consumed in their kiss that nothing mattered. They lost more but somehow lufeng in novel for his physical and sexual abuse and the level of pain he gave to yichen by hurting his close one like his son didn't made me feel sympathised more than drama lufeng.

So long story short. My pov emotional toxicity more in drama. Toxicity as in pure toxicity in novel. More depth of emotions from yichen side in novel. More emotional depth in drama from lufeng. More sympathy for lufeng in drama. More sympathy for yichen in novel.

This was long.